Can One Be Over-Churched?
Religion is a two-edged sword80 total reviews
Comment from Lady & Louis
An excellent work, Ann. It's always a relief to see commentary and criticism of this sort of religiously-based bigotry coming from the inside, as it were. I couldn't agree more with your comments, here. The selective use of religious texts (of whatever source) to define "us" and "them" is abhorrent. How many people have been oppressed, suffered violence that has gone all the way up to state-sanctioned murder, because of verses written thousands of years ago? It's quite obscene. It also loses sight entirely of the basic "Do unto others" that is to be found in many faiths around the world.
Your personal examples give an immediacy to this piece, and are well chosen as two of the glaring (and unresolved) examples of bigotry fuelled by the Old Testament. I knew the tale of Noah getting drunk and being laughed at by one son and covered by the others, but not the part about him cursing his grandchild as a result. Frankly it's a sickening story in and of itself - a miserable old drunk (probably with a hangover) CURSES a child because he got deservedly laughed at by the child's father? And that's used to justify slavery, racism and its horrors? Not to mention the whole sickening business of homophobia - and as you say, does Christ mention anyone's sexuality, ever? No, he doesn't. He had more important things to talk about than something that's part of what a person IS!
Okay, I've ranted enough ... this is a fine work and it's not only that I agree with you, but you have presented it well and given clear supporting cases. There was one typo that I noticed:
The Jim Jones' or David Kresh's of the world are the exceptions - these are plurals, not possessives, so should be "Jim Joneses or David Kreshes"
Good luck in the contest!
Louise :))
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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An excellent work, Ann. It's always a relief to see commentary and criticism of this sort of religiously-based bigotry coming from the inside, as it were. I couldn't agree more with your comments, here. The selective use of religious texts (of whatever source) to define "us" and "them" is abhorrent. How many people have been oppressed, suffered violence that has gone all the way up to state-sanctioned murder, because of verses written thousands of years ago? It's quite obscene. It also loses sight entirely of the basic "Do unto others" that is to be found in many faiths around the world.
Your personal examples give an immediacy to this piece, and are well chosen as two of the glaring (and unresolved) examples of bigotry fuelled by the Old Testament. I knew the tale of Noah getting drunk and being laughed at by one son and covered by the others, but not the part about him cursing his grandchild as a result. Frankly it's a sickening story in and of itself - a miserable old drunk (probably with a hangover) CURSES a child because he got deservedly laughed at by the child's father? And that's used to justify slavery, racism and its horrors? Not to mention the whole sickening business of homophobia - and as you say, does Christ mention anyone's sexuality, ever? No, he doesn't. He had more important things to talk about than something that's part of what a person IS!
Okay, I've ranted enough ... this is a fine work and it's not only that I agree with you, but you have presented it well and given clear supporting cases. There was one typo that I noticed:
The Jim Jones' or David Kresh's of the world are the exceptions - these are plurals, not possessives, so should be "Jim Joneses or David Kreshes"
Good luck in the contest!
Louise :))
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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I so appreciate your comments and sharing of thoughts. We, as Christians, do need to 'police ourselves' as it were. The 6 stars are especially appreciated because they come from someone whose writing I admire. ann
Comment from tteach
You are right. I have witnessed all that you state. prejudice lived in my house as a child. My parents despised anyone who wasn't white, yet they attended church fairly frequently. I have also heard students using ethnic slurs, even today, and they frequently call each other "gay" when an action brings displeasure.
This is a thought-provoking essay. Good luck.
terry
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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You are right. I have witnessed all that you state. prejudice lived in my house as a child. My parents despised anyone who wasn't white, yet they attended church fairly frequently. I have also heard students using ethnic slurs, even today, and they frequently call each other "gay" when an action brings displeasure.
This is a thought-provoking essay. Good luck.
terry
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Thanks for sharing thoughts with me. I'm glad you stopped by and I appreciate the generous review. ann
Comment from nitad
Another excellent essay, Ann. Are you sure you don't want to run for political office someday? We could use a few more thinkers like you in this country. I am curious, what book was it that your father gave you to read? You don't mention the title....
You tackled two very powerful and explosive issues in this essay and you handled both extremely well. You should do well in the contest with this one.
Take care,
Nita
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Another excellent essay, Ann. Are you sure you don't want to run for political office someday? We could use a few more thinkers like you in this country. I am curious, what book was it that your father gave you to read? You don't mention the title....
You tackled two very powerful and explosive issues in this essay and you handled both extremely well. You should do well in the contest with this one.
Take care,
Nita
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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You make me laugh!!! The last person anyone would want in public office is me--way too opinionated and pushy. lol. I'll see if I can find out the name of that book. Although I remember exactly what it looked like --sort of orangy with heavy black in-set title on the front of it-- I can remember the name of the book. However, I bet it's on the Internet and I'll check today. Also, my brother might remember. Thanks so much for your encouraging words and support. ann
Comment from chaswriter
Ann - Great essay. Agree with you wholeheartedly about this insidious, intolerant attitude that some religious zealots have. Enjoyed it.
One comment: The election of a black American president is a step in the right direction, but the ladder is still tall and the bigotry is deeply rooted.
- You switched to present tense in this sentence and other paragraphs. Is that acceptable in an essay to switch back and forth between tenses?
Charlie.
reply by the author on 18-Nov-2008
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Ann - Great essay. Agree with you wholeheartedly about this insidious, intolerant attitude that some religious zealots have. Enjoyed it.
One comment: The election of a black American president is a step in the right direction, but the ladder is still tall and the bigotry is deeply rooted.
- You switched to present tense in this sentence and other paragraphs. Is that acceptable in an essay to switch back and forth between tenses?
Charlie.
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 18-Nov-2008
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No, it is not acceptable to switch tenses!! Thanks for catching me doing so. ann
Comment from hvysmker
Religious beliefs, when unpruned and unchallenged, warp the hearts and minds of otherwise good and kind people.
*** What do you mean by unpruned? Although I couldn't find the word in my dictionaries, I know what you mean. I, however, don't get the meaning in that context. Actually, I think all preachers prune their sermons to an extent, leaving out sections of the Bible that don't adhere to their specific teaching points. After all, as ubiquitous as the Book is, it would only confuse their adherents.
and our world suffers from the deeply imbedded mistrust between the races.
*** embedded ? Yeah, I've read that part too.
The election of a black American president is a step in the right direction, but the ladder is still tall and the bigotry is deeply rooted.
*** Funny, but I've rarely read that Obama is half-white. Think about how different his life would have been if the white half were dominant and he had long hair and a whiter complexion. Honestly, though, I don't think of Obama's race. I know, it's obvious but, when I think of him, it's not according to race. If someone of my generation feels that way, younger people should have less problems.
"Well, it just is so sad. I wish he would go to Jesus with his sin. He could be saved. Have you tried witnessing to him?"
*** She is the type of person, like with racial issues, I avoid associating with. When they come up with that bull, I don't reply, simply avoid them in the future and they go away.
Gays and lesbians endure the slights, mis-placed torment and
*** misplaced is okay.
As Shakespeare said "Even the devil can cite scripture for his purpose."
*** I think I've told you about one of my first memories as a child. It was my grandfather arguing with his preacher. They went back and forth. My grandfather was pointing out verses in the Bible, showing that it was all right for him to get drunk and fornicate with strange women. That God condoned it.
Until each Christian accepts responsbility for not only for their private and public actions,
*** responsibility
Right now, I think the worst think about some current television preachers is that they're actively trying to ferment a fight between Israel and the Arabian countries. Their aim seems to be to encourage Armageddon so that they, as true believers, can get to heaven. For them, the sooner the better. As for the rest of us, well ... we should have known better and joined their religion.
He, he. Won't they be surprised when it finally happens, and they meet the Supreme Rat. (Oscar, get away from my computer.)
Charlie (he, he, he. Stupid humans.)
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Religious beliefs, when unpruned and unchallenged, warp the hearts and minds of otherwise good and kind people.
*** What do you mean by unpruned? Although I couldn't find the word in my dictionaries, I know what you mean. I, however, don't get the meaning in that context. Actually, I think all preachers prune their sermons to an extent, leaving out sections of the Bible that don't adhere to their specific teaching points. After all, as ubiquitous as the Book is, it would only confuse their adherents.
and our world suffers from the deeply imbedded mistrust between the races.
*** embedded ? Yeah, I've read that part too.
The election of a black American president is a step in the right direction, but the ladder is still tall and the bigotry is deeply rooted.
*** Funny, but I've rarely read that Obama is half-white. Think about how different his life would have been if the white half were dominant and he had long hair and a whiter complexion. Honestly, though, I don't think of Obama's race. I know, it's obvious but, when I think of him, it's not according to race. If someone of my generation feels that way, younger people should have less problems.
"Well, it just is so sad. I wish he would go to Jesus with his sin. He could be saved. Have you tried witnessing to him?"
*** She is the type of person, like with racial issues, I avoid associating with. When they come up with that bull, I don't reply, simply avoid them in the future and they go away.
Gays and lesbians endure the slights, mis-placed torment and
*** misplaced is okay.
As Shakespeare said "Even the devil can cite scripture for his purpose."
*** I think I've told you about one of my first memories as a child. It was my grandfather arguing with his preacher. They went back and forth. My grandfather was pointing out verses in the Bible, showing that it was all right for him to get drunk and fornicate with strange women. That God condoned it.
Until each Christian accepts responsbility for not only for their private and public actions,
*** responsibility
Right now, I think the worst think about some current television preachers is that they're actively trying to ferment a fight between Israel and the Arabian countries. Their aim seems to be to encourage Armageddon so that they, as true believers, can get to heaven. For them, the sooner the better. As for the rest of us, well ... we should have known better and joined their religion.
He, he. Won't they be surprised when it finally happens, and they meet the Supreme Rat. (Oscar, get away from my computer.)
Charlie (he, he, he. Stupid humans.)
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Unpruned is in my dictionary! It's the rhetoric that needs to be pruned, but I certainly appreciate your application of the term to the various preachers.
You had not told me about your grandfather. What an image that memory brings to mind and a good illustration of how we can justify anything with the right Bible verse. My dad was married 5 times -- two of his wives, including my mom, died --but the other 3 he divorced. He was on the verge of remarrying again when he died unexpectedly. He also used the Bible as justification of multiple marriages with talking with his preacher cousin. I found it amusing then and still do!
I agree with you and the whole Israeli/Palestinian thing. That is frightening to me. I've never completely understood the official Christian position on Israel in that it appears to be "Israel is right no matter what evidence there may be to the contrary."
I've corrected the errors you pointed out. Charlie, it is so good to hear from you, and I look forward to every contact. How is the publishing thing going? What can I buy that will include a Hvysmkr byline or short story? Did you ever check our lunchtime stories on the Internet? I've read some of them and you have written some at least as good, if not better.
Take care. ann
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I have two novels ready, formatted, etc. But am bogged down with query letters. No big problem except putting off looking for an agent to send them too.
I decided not to go without agent if I could help it, because an agent does most of the dirty work. I'd rather pay one and avoid the hassle. Doing it alone might be all right if you're young and living in a big city.
I did check that site out but didn't like it for some reason. I forget which. By the way, I checked out that new publishing thing from Fanstory. It's a typical POD outfit. To get a good job done, you have to pay them money. And they're no way the cheapest. I read on one site that an ISBN number costs $35. On Wordclay it's $135.
Charlie
Comment from daviwake
Thought provoking. This is a very American perspective - I live in England which is no longer a church going country on the whole, nor a particularly Christian country in general. I do not believe in God. I do not believe that Christ was the Son of God sent to redeem the sins of man. I do not believe the Bible is anything other than a collection of ancient writings. So we come from very different perspectives. Why is there Evil in the world is a pertinent question however. How do we define Evil? - I would suggest that we instinctively recognize it.
I have some sympathy with Buddhist belief - but that too can be warped by humans. In the end I think we must look to common humanity - those things that unite not divide us.
Thank you again for your thought provoking essay.
Best wishes
David
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Thought provoking. This is a very American perspective - I live in England which is no longer a church going country on the whole, nor a particularly Christian country in general. I do not believe in God. I do not believe that Christ was the Son of God sent to redeem the sins of man. I do not believe the Bible is anything other than a collection of ancient writings. So we come from very different perspectives. Why is there Evil in the world is a pertinent question however. How do we define Evil? - I would suggest that we instinctively recognize it.
I have some sympathy with Buddhist belief - but that too can be warped by humans. In the end I think we must look to common humanity - those things that unite not divide us.
Thank you again for your thought provoking essay.
Best wishes
David
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Interesting comments. We do all have to walk our own path and accept responsibility for our choices. Buddhism is one of the several religions I regularly take a little peek into, and I find it quite satisfying and enlightening. I agree completely that our world will only survive if we look for and explore the common ground shared by all humans. As for me, I need spiritual assistance and belief in a higher power to make my life complete and satisfying. Christianity works for me, but I have respect for and tolerance of those who don't share my beliefs. thanks so much for a thought-provoking review! ann
Comment from Brian S. Pratt
Very good story. I enjoyed it greatly. As for using words that some may find objectionable, sometimes you need to in order to make the point that needs to be making.
I agree with you that many christians take the scriptures out of context and only use those passages which suit their needs without caring how they are really supposed to be taken.
Couldn't find anyting to add or detract. You write well.
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Very good story. I enjoyed it greatly. As for using words that some may find objectionable, sometimes you need to in order to make the point that needs to be making.
I agree with you that many christians take the scriptures out of context and only use those passages which suit their needs without caring how they are really supposed to be taken.
Couldn't find anyting to add or detract. You write well.
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Thanks, Brian. I appreciate the encouraging and supportive review. ann
Comment from jlsavell
Annmuma, this is a powerful message very worthy of the contest entry.
It is interesting to note that Christ Jesus once said that you could recognize whether his teachings had entered one's heart by his "Fruits"..the things he says and does.
Christendom is responsible for more bloodshed and hate than any religion upon the face of the Earth...notice I said Christendom,not pure unadulterated Christianity..there is a difference. If one claims to be a Chrisitian he needs to ask himself if his thinking and the way he treatS his fellow man is in line with what Christ taught..which first and foemost was love...
well I could go on and on..but I will not..you have said quite a lot in your essay..wonderful write..
jlsavell
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Annmuma, this is a powerful message very worthy of the contest entry.
It is interesting to note that Christ Jesus once said that you could recognize whether his teachings had entered one's heart by his "Fruits"..the things he says and does.
Christendom is responsible for more bloodshed and hate than any religion upon the face of the Earth...notice I said Christendom,not pure unadulterated Christianity..there is a difference. If one claims to be a Chrisitian he needs to ask himself if his thinking and the way he treatS his fellow man is in line with what Christ taught..which first and foemost was love...
well I could go on and on..but I will not..you have said quite a lot in your essay..wonderful write..
jlsavell
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Thank so much for a generous and interesting review. I love the opportunity to share ideas and opinions. So glad you stopped by. ann
Comment from Teri7
This is a good essay you have penned. I do not agree with all of what you have said as I do believe in God and Jesus and some things are not right. I was not happy with either of the candidates for president. I pray that Obama gives us a great surprise. I think he is a very intelligent man and his family seems to be lovely. I just hope he does what he says. So many do not. I don't care about color, I care about America and God. Love, Teri
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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This is a good essay you have penned. I do not agree with all of what you have said as I do believe in God and Jesus and some things are not right. I was not happy with either of the candidates for president. I pray that Obama gives us a great surprise. I think he is a very intelligent man and his family seems to be lovely. I just hope he does what he says. So many do not. I don't care about color, I care about America and God. Love, Teri
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Thanks for a generous review, but, more than that, thanks for sharing your own thoughts and ideas. I love this site and the opportunity it gives us to explore each other's opinions. ann
Comment from Alyssa Pendergrass
Your opinion in this essay comes across clearly. There is no confusion, and I appreciated the examples you listed. It's an approach to religion most people have difficulty understanding from the inside looking out. It's great and definitely makes the reader think about their own opinions.
This rating does not count towards story rating or author rank.
The highest and the lowest rating are not included in calculations.
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Your opinion in this essay comes across clearly. There is no confusion, and I appreciated the examples you listed. It's an approach to religion most people have difficulty understanding from the inside looking out. It's great and definitely makes the reader think about their own opinions.
This rating does not count towards story rating or author rank.
The highest and the lowest rating are not included in calculations.
Comment Written 18-Nov-2008
reply by the author on 19-Nov-2008
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Thanks so much for your generous review and encouraging comments. ann
