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Sarkems
I like bacon
because it tastes good.

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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 19, 2018 01:33 PM << Modifed January 19 at 1:38PM >>
DJ, I know you know my history on this. I did look, I looked for a long time before I realised I was looking for the proverbial black cat in a dark room that was not, in fact, there. And all you write here only strengthens my knowledge that the black cat in the instance of a creator-god was an invention of a frustrated humanity's desire to explain things, and also to control.

I know it is unwitting, and entirely innocent, but so much of your writing smacks of a wish to bend others to your will, in short to control them to make the world as you would like it. What better way to do it than by using a deity who cannot be seen, and therefore cannot be challenged. So much can be attributed to the unseen, and so much can be claimed or disclaimed in his name.

And how much to suit ourselves. 'Big Pharma' is an evil thing, right up until it unmistakeably saves the life of you or a loved one. Then it becomes a gift from god, does it not? 'It's a miracle' brought about by years of study and research. My sister is alive today because 'Big Pharma' invented incubators, without which millions of premature babies perished. In your earlier post, you confused stem cell research with vaccines when mentioning cells from aborted foetuses. Actually, stem cells can be and are being harvested from living tissue immediately after a baby is born by banking the blood from the umbilical cord. Stem cells have been used in 1 million transplants worldwide and are being investigated in over 5,000 clinical trials13. Doctors and scientists believe that cord blood stem cells are one of the cornerstones of regenerative medicine and may soon offer therapies for many incurable diseases, such as Parkinson?s, Alzheimer?s and diabetes.

All this helps along the 'miracle' of survival against the odds. Jesus in your bible was a healer of the sick. Do you really think he'd be so against the modern healers of the sick?

So some make money from healing the sick today? Seems a bit un - American to be against making a fast buck, and as a non-American you know I don't approve of your lack of proper affordable healthcare, but that doesn't mean those pioneers of life-saving treatment were all in it for a quick buck. Early vaccinations were born out of desperation to save those suffering and dying. Didn't your Jesus supposedly do that?

So, what is the real problem, here? Is it that treatment is available to those who may be morally undeserving in the eyes of some? That I, as an atheist, have as much access to this as any god-fearing person?

I wonder how far you'd really go. If you, or your loved ones were in a serious car accident, would you refuse treatment because 'Big Pharma' was providing it? Even if it meant the difference between life and certain death? What if you got to the 'other side' and your god was there, and he said, 'you idiot. I gave those skills to those people to help you, and you refused'?

See, therein lies the problem. There's always more than one way of viewing the actions of people in relation to your god, and there's nothing in the bible on this particular issue which really supports the idea that modern medicine is against your god's will.

To be honest, if you really and truly believed all that 'only needing god' stuff, you wouldn't be talking to us now on this creation of sinful man, you'd be out in the wilderness. You're a man of god, why do you need anything else? Surely he'll provide for you, eh?

Could it be because, in your heart of hearts, you know he won't, really, no matter how devout you are? You asked me, when I said what it would take for me to believe, 'you can't believe god works like that', or words to that effect. Of course I don't, because I don't believe he even exists. But how god works is something none of you believers seem able to agree on, despite your assertion of the apparent clarity of the bible.

Look at you and Mrs Major now, both clearly scholars of the bible, both obviously believers, yet both with different attitudes and ideas about how god, in fact, works, and where he belongs in the great scheme of things. To be honest, Mrs Majors' idea or faith is one I could more easily get behind than yours. It's more sensible, and personal, and has less to do with everybody else having to live with it. She obviously gets a lot from it, which is great. So do you, but you seem to think it is necessary for the rest of us to be playing along with it in order for you to get what you want out of it. And I really don't understand why.

Despite what you may think, Christianity really isn't under any threat in your country, just because you've got Muslims living there, or atheists, or because some gay people can now choose to be married. Nobody is banning you from practising your own faith. If there's sin in the world, nobody is forcing you to commit it. You don't really know what it is to have your religion forcibly cut from your lives. You might want to ask those who've really not been allowed to study their history and religion to get a sense of what that really means, and you don't have to go far to find the races and religions who fell victim to that Christian desire to force all to only worship their god, and you know that is true.

I'd be quite happy for you all to live like the Amish do, without all the evils of the modern world. Neither I, nor anyone else would stop you, but the funny thing is, so few of you really want to do that. I wonder why?

There's no harm in being who you are, thinking as you do. You do you. But it really isn't necessary for any of the rest of us to do the same.

I'd also like to point out that I don't think anyone here has claimed to be morally superior to god. That would require a belief in such a being, and nobody who believes he exists would make that claim. The moral superiority here, if such a claim was even being made, would be over the people who lived thousands of years ago in different times who wrote the manual which suited them at that time. A manual which changed as its original rather brutal tactics fell out of favour. A manual which adapted to appease the peasants it had ceased to effectively control by violence and fear.

I like Jesus. He's a great character to look up to, to want to be like. Doesn't matter that I don't think he is actually 'real' in the biblical sense, or that I think he's based on Siddharta Gautama, who definitely never claimed to be any god's son. He's a good guy, and we could all do worse than look to the lessons of kindness and selflessness there. But these are human emotions. When we start to see them as outside of us, and only acheiveable through someone or something else, that's when we lose the integrity, the purpose behind those things. Compassion, and love for all should be for its own sake. Not because some book tells us. And if it isn't there, the only thing we, as individuals can do is show it to one another, to provide the example ourselves.

And nobody with an ounce of compassion in their heart could look at the video of the last of the iron lung users and not want a world where nobody has to go through that. And vaccines could make that world a reality. Which is more than your god ever did.




CD Richards

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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 19, 2018 02:49 PM



Sarkems
I like bacon
because it tastes good.

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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 19, 2018 04:29 PM
But we have strayed, and I had said before I wouldn't discuss religion on the political forum. I will say that I have no problem with the various faiths people have. In many ways, it is a beautiful thing. But it is not mine, and whilst I appreciate that it is not fair to consider a deeply held faith a 'delusion', I am going to answer direct references to faith as some sort of truth which non-believers are incapable of understanding.

Our understanding is merely different. And much of this thread reveals why religion and politics make poor bedfellows and should be separate. In the interest of not further offending, I withdraw from this particular thread, and shall return to my original promise - no religion in the political thread.

mrsmajor
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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 19, 2018 05:34 PM << Modifed January 20 at 6:45PM >>
Sarkems,

Part of what you last posted is exactly what I have been trying to say for a good while...and its because there are differences in the interpretation of scripture, that I have tried to make it clear, that we all have the right to believe as we choose.

I will discuss anything with anyone, even with someone that is not a christian, or doesn't believe in scripture, but I will not try to force them to follow me and my beliefs and ideals...and to be frank, yet not trying to be unpleasant, I don't read dj's long worded posts.

I say that because I am not here to be taught or to teach, and I'd rather have conversations that are interesting, and from which its possible to learn something, even with differences of opinion..

Differences of opinion, can be interesting, trying to understand the thoughts of others, is what people do that are interested in the world, here there, and everywhere...and I truly believe you are one of those people...but because you or even CD, reads my words, it certainly doesn't mean I'm trying to teach you anything.

Those that have been posting here on a consistent basis have made their feelings know, and so have I...what should come next is just thoughts, and perhaps questions that some would like to have answered...my Faith is strong, its personal, and I also said, and mean this too...I can still be a friend to a non-Christian...who knows I might need one of them to being me a drink of water someday, or help me across the streets...and although I smile as I say that its true.

I spent another 2 days in the hospital this week, and its funny to say that I see the same nurses sometimes...and of course my medical records say that I am a Jehovah Witness...as is noted of the religion of all patients....they want to know your desires, should you not be able to answer in a serious situation....(should one need a transfusion is an important reason)...and I have been asked questions, with due respect about my Faith...I have never minded the questions...and I'll tell you this...(I might have told this story before).

After a stay in the hospital for a good period of time...my Hemoglobin Blood count continued to drop dangerously low...when it got to 6 my doctor explained I was in dire need of a blood transfusion...he went as far as to say they could do so after visiting hours so that if any of my JW members came to see me they wouldn't see.

What I have learned over my lifetime is there are people that mean you no harm, and only good...can you imagine hospital personnel that concerned about one patient, these are the kind of people I like to talk about...not someone that is trying to give me instructions on how to live.

I don't know the religious background of any of them... (although my Cardiologist is Indian)..and they didn't have to go as far as they did to help me...it makes me cry right now when I think of it...but then something happened that was such a blessing...instead of a blood transfusion they gave me 2 transfusions of straight Iron along with both vitamin b12, and vitamin D...and here I am...still hanging on...I had to stay a bit longer in the hospital, but I got back on my feel again.

I say all of this, whether anyone chooses to believe it or not, my prayer were answered...but that's my belief, no one else's and I wouldn't think any less of someone that doesn't believe that.

Sorry, for this long post, sometimes words just continue to come to this old mind of mine.


Just Some Thoughts!








Sarkems
I like bacon
because it tastes good.

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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 20, 2018 03:14 AM
That's a very touching story about the care you received, with respect and consideration for your faith.

And that is exactly how it should be.


mrsmajor
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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 20, 2018 12:19 PM


Sarkems, I believe there is more of these kind of thing, then we can imagine...mainly because there are more good and decent people then there are the lousy folks in the world...


djeckert
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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 20, 2018 04:45 PM

Sark, you say

".... Jesus in your bible was a healer of the sick. Do you really think he'd be so against the modern healers of the sick? "
Yes, as a whole I , and many Christians KNOW He would .

It is interesting that you mention stem cells and Jesus. Jesus was in to fasting, and He and the Bible had many things to say on this.
Here is an interesting article on a very recent USC study done on fasting and stem cells

https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/

By the way, I pay an annual fee for the storage of my son's stem cells. Just FYI.


You say,
"I wonder how far you'd really go. If you, or your loved ones were in a serious car accident, would you refuse treatment because 'Big Pharma' was providing it? Even if it meant the difference between life and certain death? What if you got to the 'other side' and your god was there, and he said, 'you idiot. I gave those skills to those people to help you, and you refused'? "

I actually have more of a fear that Jesus will say to me "You idiot, you knew what you knew, and you didn't share it with people and warn them!"
( Actually, I may have already had a similar experience to this . But thanks be to the Loving Lord, He gave me another chance. I'm sure you have read this part of my personal testemony that I wrote about called "The life changing trip of a spiritual goof", it explains a lot about why I say , and believe the things that I do. )

Emma, I have no problem at all with people of medical training developing their skills for their
"art" of healing. It did used to be considered an art. No, I have always said that I have no problem whatsoever with modern medicine in regards to acute, or emergency treatments. It IS THE FINEST , and most wise path of action for ANY Human, Christian or not. My issue has always been and will still always be in regards to the ""chronic disease/ treatment medical model". It is seriously flawed,seriously perverted AND as you point out makes a lot of people a LOT of money..
Adding to it, a little insurance scam ... And it is quite a lucrative deal, for many.( Not, though for most participants....Most Doctors,patients, nurses ,administrators / support staff etc... Are most people in this system unwitting participants with very noble and very often good and rewarding intentions and results for many? ( at least in medical emergency) Heck yes. But that doesn't mean I won't continue on my quest to enlighten people in this area. ( Which I will continue to point out, ultimately brings people to an earlier grave than necessary). Is this point of view maybe a bit too overarching ,with many examples of exception? Sure, but it is also quite true.


Then you say,
" To be honest, Mrs Majors' idea or faith is one I could more easily get behind than yours. It's more sensible, and personal, and has less to do with everybody else having to live with it. She obviously gets a lot from it, which is great. So do you, but you seem to think it is necessary for the rest of us to be playing along with it in order for you to get what you want out of it. And I really don't understand why. "

It is not so much that I "get what I want out of it" ( much of the problems of our country stem from this "what's in it for me? mentality". ) It IS rather that Jesus told us to preach repentance and be a witness to The Good News ( that humankind can be redeemed through Jesus to bring about the Kingdom of God for ALL who desire it. ). And I try to fear God more than I fear men. Admittedly , a constant battle for all Christians anyways.
I would be in dereliction if I didn't quote a few lines from the old Manual lol.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Proverbs 9:10 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/pro.9.10.KJV



Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
James 4:4 KJV



Honestly, I know that you know that I am not forcing you or anybody else to believe anything. How can I?, Or even, how dare I? If you are feeling forced to change your beliefs, that is strictly the work of God and the Holy Spirit.
Mrs Majors is a wonderful and beautiful witness to the Christian faith. I know she will be displeased with me for saying this ( maybe if I make this post nice and long, she won't read it. Lol) But, she, and unfortunately, most Christians also have a HUGE blindspot when it comes to the works of the Biblical spiritual enemy ( in my opinion, I added that for you Mrs. M)

You say,

"Despite what you may think, Christianity really isn't under any threat in your country, just because you've got Muslims living there, or atheists, or because some gay people can now choose to be married. Nobody is banning you from practising your own faith. If there's sin in the world, nobody is forcing you to commit it. ...."


To that, I will say , despite what you may think , that just is NOT TRUE. Perhaps your perspective is still wrong in this. ( Trusting too much mainstream media). Here's a simple little blurb on that:

It is a well established concept that we are born with the perspective in us that "whatever Momma, or Daddy tells us, is the Truth".

If Mom or Dad told us that the color of the sky was purple, then everything that we saw, or perceived of that same color, we would call purple.
Our correct perceptions would tell us that despite what "other crazies " might tell us...about the sky being really blue, we would hold on to our correct perception that the sky is purple.

Of course, this would go on and on until someone might convince us that our perspective that everything Mom or Dad told us, might not necessarily be true.

This is probably why many Spirit lead Christians are going around asking everyone "Who's
your Daddy?" ( Or at LEAST, where do you get your news? Another raising up of that old unavoidable bugaboo about politics and religion being intimately intermingled. Can you say Deja Vu?)


Hey Craig, I peeked a bit at your love fest of Mr.
Soetoro, aka Obama. To that I will just add that, to me and many others, he will look so Glorious in his cute little orange jumpsuit.


CD Richards

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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 20, 2018 05:55 PM
Golly gee... after they arrest Obama and put him in his orange jumpsuit, do you think they'll put him in one of those dozens of secret death camps the Luciferan left have been building in the desert to torture and kill all the God-fearing, gun-toting, conservatives, DJ?

Your little analogy about the sky colour is just too funny. Your point being (unless I'm mistaken) the danger of blindly accepting information, and the value of being able to critically judge evidence on its own merits?

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that for thousands of years you and millions of others have been fed stories about imaginary super beings who want you to to believe particular things, to behave in particular ways, based on something called "faith".

Since you were a tiny child, you've been presented with a mythology that not only explains everything (first alarm bell) though no supporting evidence exists, but also dictates why you may not believe anything else, . And you've swallowed it, hook, line and sinker. How's that for a conspiracy for you?

I suspect this response is on the wrong thread - sorry about that.



Sarkems
I like bacon
because it tastes good.

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RE: When will the final straw fall?
Reply on January 21, 2018 04:38 AM
DJ, please tell me when, in your country, you have been actively prevented from practising your faith. Please tell me where you are forced to deny it (and don't give me a bakery being forced to *gasp* make a cake. That is not the same as forcing you to commit sexual acts with someone of the same gender). Please tell me where Christians are forced to abort their babies. Mrs Major has just given us a perfect example of where she was not forced to have treatment against her beliefs, please tell me where others are being forced.

Please tell me where allowing others to do as they wish in regards to their own personal life has impinged on your belief. I want examples, specifically from YOUR experience. Please tell me where you cannot speak on your own language and pray to your own god without being beaten or arrested in your country.

Please tell me where you have been refused treatment for illness because you are a Christian. Please tell me where a Muslim, Jew or Hindu, or any other faith has prevented you, by law, from worshipping your own god.

Please tell me where the law has told you, as a Christian, who you can love in the privacy of your own home, and who you can marry.

Yet all these things Christianity has done in the past. BY LAW in your own country. And now the times are changing, and those who've had to live under the heel of the dictatorship of who they love and how they show that have come out blinking into the light and it's 'boo hoo, wah wah, they are allowed to sin against god, whilst not affecting me remotely. Wail. Men can now become the women they always knew they were. Wah, wah, this is really hurting my faith for no reason at all, wail. *stamps foot* I can't have it all my own way anymore as a white, heterosexual Christian male. I have to acknowledge other people exist, are hman beings and have rights. Wah wah.'

Must be really hard for you, facing the tiniest taste of what thousands of oppressed groups have faced for hundreds of years in your country.

If you're feeling forced, perhaps it's because you're realising there's people in your country who've had enough of you and your god having it all your own way. For centuries.

Mainstream media? The mainstream media over here his telling me /I can't trust anyone with brown skin and a beard, 'coz they are all evil terrorists, but when a white man commits a crime, he's not a terrorist, he's got mental health issues. The mainstream media over here is still telling me How great we are and how all our problems are because we let someone else in the door. Because our mainstream media isn't yours, and those who think like me are actually the ones looking at alternative sources. But shock, horror, somewhere that doesn't have the same media as America. Gosh, who'd have thought it.

And you've still not said one word about polio and the iron lungs. No answer for that, have you?

And even poor Mrs Major, who believes devoutly in the same god, reads the same book as you, she's still not doing it right.

No, you aren't trying to 'force' us here. But you'd like a government that does, wouldn't you? Be honest. You don't want all of us non-believers to have a say in how your country is run if it means we get choices too. If it means we can do things that don't please YOUR god. Because you think that's bad for your country, and because you think that's bad for your country, it doesn't matter that you actually aren't legally required to give up your faith to live there. The very fact that other people aren't legally required to give up their way of life is enough for you to think you are being persecuted. Because your way of life isn't, in some ways, the LAW any more. That's what it comes down to. Because if I want to marry another woman, have an abortion, build a mosque, have gender-reassignment surgery, I can. And nobody will stop me. It doesn't affect you, it doesn't harm you, but it means your beliefs aren't in charge of my life, and that is the real problem, here. For some reason, it isn't enough for your beliefs just to be yours that you are free to practice, your whole country has to be run to the letter by them.

And you don't like it that that isn't how it actually works in a supposedly 'free' country.

If this post sounds aggressive and challenging, it's meant to. I'm fed up of all this tiptoeing around. Let's be REALLY honest, here. You don't want religious freedom, you want your religion in charge. You don't want to be free to not have vaccines if you don't want them, to worship your god in your way, to walk down the aisle with your chosen bride, etc (all of which I would totally support). You want nobody else to be able to have vaccines, worship a god who is different to yours, marry their own choice of partner, etc.

That's where you think the oppression of your religion is, isn't it? Not what you are not allowed to do, because there isn't anything which you, as a white, heterosexual, Christian male cannot do, is there? No, the oppression comes in because other people are allowed to live differently in your country, and sometimes - shock, horror - a decent Christian might be forced to deal with someone who isn't exactly like them, because their job, whilst not forcing them to abandon their morals and indulge in activities against their beliefs themselves, requires them to.

And oh my goodness, the last president actually acknowledged that there are people in this world from places that aren't America, who believe in things that aren't the same, that live in America. And because he didn't ban their religion and boot them out of the country, he's one of them, naturally. And because we all know they are all terrorists, because the MAINSTREAM media tells us so, he must be a terrorist, too. His wife must be a man because he's allowed gay and transgender marriage.

Oh, please.






   
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