There is Sure to be BacklashThread Started November 22 at 3:29AM
<< Thread Modifed November 22 at 3:49AM >>
With the current gains made by women in gaining public office as well as standing up for their right to NOT be abused in the workplace or any other place, there is bound to be a backlash by those yet unwilling to give up their power without a fight.
The easiest target is sexual abuse accusations. False accusations can quickly dilute the power of real ones.
The counter-attack is about to be unleashed in all its fury. EXPECT a plethora of accusations against key Democrats in the near future. No doubt there will be accusations against prominent Republicans as well.
The accusations against Senator Al Franken may or not be the first of these salvos. If false, that's unfortunate. Hopefully, the truth will come out. THIS cannot be the focus at this time.
The idea is to create an avalanche of accusation and innuendo that WEAKENS the force of REAL charges. The intent is to lessen the impact of charges against the Weinsteins, Trumps and Moores of the world. The hope is that the public will adopt an attitude of, "We don't know WHO to believe".
Don't fall for this. Now is the time to fully support these women. It isn't the time to nitpick and debate each case and thus weaken the others. YES, false accusations are horrible and not to be tolerated. BUT the greater good here is that decades, indeed centuries, of abuse are finally coming to light for women.
This is a step forward, a giant step, that can't be halted by anything.
The focus needs to remain on abuse of women ... period.
All men need to take a look at themselves. We've had the upper hand from day one. I'm sure most of us are decent and respectful. However, I think the time has come that we all need to take that to the next level.
Just my view. I worry about how easily LIES become accepted readily as truth just by repetition. We see that more and more in social media. There are absurdities to this day STILL being touted even after being completely discredited. The truth doesn't matter to everyone.
With this in mind, Trump is endorsing Roy Moore for Senate. Wow. How is that justified in any sane world? Birds of a feather?
Reply on November 22, 2017 05:20 AM << Modifed November 22 at 5:39AM >>
Here's the thing. I don't consider myself to be the victim of some propaganda when I say 'innocent until proven guilty' is still a thing. What I've seen on social is a witch hunt. Every single accusation is accepted as truth without any trial, and the hatred heaped upon people who have not stood trial, who have been accused, because the automatic assumption these days is 'he did it'.
I love the fact that you care so much about abused women, Michael. But we've gone from victims never being believed to trial by social media on someone else's say-so, and I don't think that's right either.
Yesterday, a friend posted about the death of 'Likely Lads' star, Rodney Bewes. So, automatically, I posted the memory of the time I worked with him, and he asked me if I wanted to have an affair with him. I instantly regretted it, because I realised how easily that innocent bit of banter could be taken out of context, and maybe I really shouldn't tell that story any more. Because I liked the guy, and don't want people thinking he did something he didn't.
But here's the thing, sexual assault is notoriously hard to prove or disprove after the fact. It is usually one person's word against another. If I wanted to, I could stand up tomorrow and say, 'Rodney Bewes assaulted me in the dressing room that day', and I know I'd be believed. I'd probably get a payout from his estate.
I'm not saying we should let people get away with terrible acts. I'm saying the current witch hunt isn't helping, and open doors for the opportunists who see a way to make a buck out of it. I don't like 'trial by facebook', and it makes it even easier for the naysayers and the propagandists to use all this for their own agendas.
As soon as there is a big exposure, like the Weinstein one, suddenly there's a firing line, and everyone's oh, so willing to believe every man, woman and child who says they were abused by a celebrity.
We've got to the point where complimenting someone on their hair is sexual harassment. Soon, nobody is going to speak to anybody, for fear of causing offence.
As a woman, and one who has experienced something dreadful in the past, I'm still not going to buy into the public flogging of every man who coughed in the direction of a woman. Yes, false accusations DO distract from the very real horror, and we can't just pretend they don't exist.
This is too big a deal to be played out on social media like a TV drama. Serious allegations should be dealt with in a courtroom, and women should feel they are going to get fair hearing and treatment, which they so often haven't had, but that absolutely does not justify 'trial by facebook'.
Yes, this IS the time to nitpick and debate every case. Because if we don't, we'll undermine the entire justice system, and ruin the lives of people to prove a point. Every case is different, and every case should be dealt with through the proper channels. We mustn't stoop to seeing the wrongfully accused as 'collateral damage in a war'. Innocent until proven guilty MUST still be paramount. Don't fall for the propaganda that urrently says every man accused is guilty.
Reply on November 22, 2017 06:02 AM
Short Works Rating
Reply on November 22, 2017 06:32 AM << Modifed November 22 at 6:33AM >>
My comment may not be especially relevant to the case in question, but I think it may help to demonstrate that things can be taken to ridiculous extremes. I recall when my children used to attend day care (this is quite a while ago, back in the late 80s / early 90s). There was a lot of concern at the time about the abuse of children, by men in particular. An edict was issued at the Child Care centre my kids attended, and I believe it was at least a state-wide ruling, if not national. The edict was this:
If a child falls over in the playground, or on the childcare premises and hurts themselves, only female childcare workers may physically hug or touch the child to comfort them. If they were being cared for by a male at the time, he had to find a female staff member to attend to the child. Of course, not a single parent had ever requested such a ridiculous action, but the bureaucrats decided it was "in the best interests of the children".
What triggered this absurd knee jerk reaction? Some reports had come out showing that around 90% of sexual abuse of children was committed by males. As awful as this is, I can't see why it came as such a surprise. It would appear that the "experts" responsible for determining policy in childcare facilities couldn't differentiate between the two statements "90 percent of child predators are men" and "90 percent of men are child predators".
I think Emma is correct in pointing out we need to be careful of witch hunt mentality. That's not to say that abuses of women are not common, or that the problem has not been swept under the carpet for far too long. Just that we need to be very careful about assuming too much.
I don't know if that rule is still in force, it's a long time since any of my kids were in school.
Reply on November 22, 2017 06:37 AM
I happen to agree with you, if any man has done to any woman, anything that can be considered sexual abuse,..they should not get away with it...not for a moment!
but what exactly is sexual harassment, is it by word, touch, insinuation or what!
Its hard to know what was said or done, if we only hear one side...not that I disbelieve every woman, but these are serious accusations, a man can be held accountable for something that may not have actually happened in the way it was told...shall we just
condemn each man, without knowing.
I heard it said, just this morning, on the news, that now woman have to be protected, they shouldn't have to work with a man in hotel room, or in a office...alone...
Having worked where there were both men and woman in high places, (I wasn't in any of those positions) I have seen what I guess some would call sexual harassment...a joke that shouldn't have been made, a tap on the shoulder, kiss on the cheek when a job was well done...an invite out for a drink after working long hours...and not every woman turned down such an evening...are we to assume that is harassment...
I don't think I would put Weinstein and Franken (sp?) in the same pot...but both surely were out of line.
Men will just have to stick to work only, never a pleasant word, or even to shake hands should not be done...Further there was a woman who was a vice president in the advertising agency I once worked for, and she was one hell of a person to be in charge...she gave the guys a fit, especially verbally...so I think we have to be fair...its not only men that get out of line.
Yes I agree with you, you have stated what I have been thinking...and yet, not for a moment, do I want anyone to get away with any kind of sexual abuse, verbally, of physically.
Just Some Thoughts!
Reply on November 22, 2017 07:01 AM << Modifed November 22 at 7:02AM >>
Innocent until proven guilty puts Donald Trump in the White House. It puts Roy Moore in the Senate. It puts Harvey Weinstein behind the camera making movies. It makes it a damn shame they fired Charlie Rose.
I'm not for a witch hunt, of course not. That's not the point I was making.
I don't want an atmosphere where the women who spoke out against the above men become, ONCE AGAIN, afraid to do so.
An avalanche of false accusations is a TACTIC that can be expected, in my opinion. As Emma says, anyone can accuse anyone.
The avalanche of lies WILL affect the truth, it always does ... in my opinion.
Do I disagree in principal with anything stated? No. But it goes to making my point. Let's step back and take a breath here ... etc., etc., etc. .....
Reply on November 22, 2017 07:05 AM
Quite right, Mrs M.
Craig, something similar happened in the UK, but it became that no member of staff should touch a child. So a young child who couldn't apply sunscreen to hard-to-reach areas burned because teachers weren't allowed to help.
There has to be some common sense. And I think that's what's being lost. Attitudes towards sexual abuse and harassment of women have been negligent. The court system has been skewed against them, workplace prejudice has left many feeling they must 'put up or shut up', but the answer isn't to shove women in the box marked 'victim' and men in the box marked 'sexual predator'.
I don't want children today to experience sexual harassment or discrimination, and be ignored. But I don't want girls to view boys and men with suspicion and fear. I don't want girls to be unable to discern between an inappropriate action and an innocent remark. I don't want the seriousness of assault and abuse to be debased by those who think a compliment from any male colleague is harassment, because some male colleagues take it too far.
Reply on November 22, 2017 07:24 AM << Modifed November 22 at 7:38AM >>
But where does guilty until proven innocent put us?
Ask any person in prison because of the colour of their skin ...
I absolutely agree that women shouldn't be afraid to talk about their abusers. But the current trend is not the way. I've not seen any 'propaganda' about people who've been caught falsely accusing. What I've seen is a whole lot of accusations taken at face value, and anyone daring to challenge that being accused of sexism, or victims of patriarchy, or whatever else. And I'm the one falling for propaganda? I'm not so sure about that.
I'm going to stick with viewing every case as one which has evidence on both sides. Because that's what I'd like the law to do. And the law hasn't done that in the past. Righting that wrong shouldn't mean creating another bias.
I don't know where you are seeing the highlighting of false accusations, Mikey, because I'm not seeing that. What I HAVE seen is that aspect quietly shoved under the carpet, and prominence given to sensational cases as though this is the norm, and is endemic, creating an environment of accusation and suspicion, and the accused immediately being labelled guilty.
Reply on November 22, 2017 07:56 AM << Modifed November 22 at 7:59AM >>
It's not simply innocent until proven guilty. There's a crime. There's evidence. The evidence points to a suspect. If the evidence is sufficient, the suspect is arrested. And WHILE under arrest a trial ensues. In the meantime, the suspect is locked up for the safety of all.
In the case of Weinstein and Rose the evidence was sufficient in the eyes of their employers to terminate them. Legal investigations are under way. Legal investigations are ongoing against Trump as well, but he IS President and he IS a billionaire. I'm sure investigations are under way against Moore as well, I'm sure.
In all of those cases most informed people consider the evidence, ie the ladies who stepped forward, to be highly credible with everything to lose and nothing to gain.
We have an insane situation here in the U.S. Moore is a candidate for the U.S. Senate and he is currently in a position to WIN his race. He is backed by the President of the U.S. HALF the voting populace of Alabama support him. Pastors of churches back him.
It is INSANITY.
The false accusations are yet to come. That is simply what I predict based on past tactics. The Alt-Right, Trump and the like use diversion tactics to great effect. A couple dozen prominent Democrats accused of sexual abuse or assault would do just fine. The accuser of Al Franken is a frequent guest on Fox News Hannity's show and an employee of Breitbart who made the accusation just before her Playboy spread hit the newstands. A bit suspicious, yes? Maybe it's still a legit claim, I don't know. It doesn't compare to the claims against Ray Moore, that is certain.
I don't think teaching our children what is and what is appropriate is not all that difficult. You have pretty eyes is okay, you've got nice tits, nope. I apologize for the sarcasm....
Reply on November 22, 2017 08:51 AM << Modifed November 22 at 8:59AM >>
'I don't think teaching our children what is and what is appropriate is not all that difficult. You have pretty eyes is okay, you've got nice tits, nope.'
I agree with you. Unfortunately, in the current climate, many do not think 'you have pretty eyes' IS o.k. It's an unwanted remark about appearance, suggesting that's all there is to notice about a women, etc'. Think I'm making that up? sadly not.
The thing is, we've been through this in the UK, after the terrible case of Jimmy Saville. What he did was shocking, nobody doubts it and he had to die before people got the courage to come forward.
The case opened up a can of worms of cover-ups at the BBC and elsewhere. But the witch-hunt kicked off was epic in proportion. Operation Yew Tree, a special police investigative unit set up to investigate claims of abuse had some success in targeting perpetrators. Because of the rightful outrage at the secrecy and cover-ups, subsequent investigations fell in to the opposite trap. Celebrities were being held up on charge because they once posed for a picture with their arm round a young girl's waste in 1973, and people were pilloried.
There's got to be a middle ground between nobody listening or believing, and everybody hearing one side of the story and automatically acting as judge, jury and executioner.
And too many times, people not liking the accused for political reasons has more to do with the level of belief in the accusations than it should.
No, we don't know what to believe, when there's the possibility of an agenda. And I'm sorry, 'believe and support everyone coming forward' doesn't cut it with me. Because I've seen the results of false accusation on a domestic scale, and I've been the victim too afraid to speak up, and neither position is healthy, or good.
Sorry, I just can't go with the idea of blind finger-pointing, which is what I feel you advocate, albeit I'm sure unintentionally, in your exhortation that we support every accuser without what I consider to be the necessary nit-picking of the case.
Reply on November 22, 2017 09:28 AM << Modifed November 22 at 7:50PM >>
While we just can't ignore what is happening, because there are some men whose intention is to abuse, have their way, and disrespect woman...but, what one might consider abuse, another may not...should all of these accusations be put in the same box...with the same results...should every man accused be fired, loose their position in life, when what was done was no more than a slip of the tongue...Ive read one woman complained of what was said to her, that it was inappropriate...because she decided to come forth now, should that man be fired, how are we to prove that statement was said in the way it was not intended.
I understand what MichaelC, is saying, and he's right, we have to listen to the woman that are making these accusations, but we have to deal with them on a individual basis.
There's no way this avalanche of complaints can be swept under the rug, without some kind of response...and in some cases legal action...I just don't want to see anyone, man or woman, thrown to the wolves because of something said, that cannot be verified...should we simply accept the words of a person, without nothing to back it up...I just don't know!
On a sad note...this week here a little boy died because of the actions of his daycare staff...it was known that he was allergic to milk, yet he was given a grilled cheese sandwich...went into an severe allergic reaction, the staff didn't call 911, right away, why I don't know, but that little boy died...and the day care center has been closed...laws make sense sometimes but sometimes they just don't...that child could have been saved...with proper medical attention, that's what the authorities said..
Just Some Thoughts!
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