Messages

RE: Feud

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Harambe, you seem to think that trump is some minor pest who you can swat away like a mosquito. What Craig and I are trying to convince you of is that the man is a grave danger to your country and the world. What is the use of all the good works you (and your brother, apparently) are doing if the pillars that currently support your fragile democracy come tumbling down.

I sincerely hope it doesn't happen that way, but the signs are there and what's happening right now in LA may be just a foretaste of what's to come.

A couple of points. You think Trump can't be a dictator because he was legally (maybe) elected. Perhaps you'd like to study the history of a certain German who was legally appointed Chancellor in 1933 and then what followed was, as described by Wikipedia...

the Enabling Act of 1933. This law gave the German government the power to override individual rights prescribed by the constitution, and vested the Chancellor (Hitler) with emergency powers to pass and enforce laws without parliamentary oversight. The law came into force in March, and by April, Hitler held de facto dictatorial powers and ordered the construction of the first Nazi concentration camp at Dachau for communists and other political opponents. Hitler's rise to power was completed in August 1934 when, after Hindenburg's death, Hitler merged the chancellery with the presidency into the title of Führer ("leader").

Sound familiar at all? Shoud do; you're nearly there.

Secondly, you accuse others of lying, but claim I said Trump was a convicted rapist. No, I said he was an adjudicated rapist. That's in the words of the Judge in the Carroll case who, when asked what the verdict meant confirmed that it meant Trump was a rapist.

Have a lovely day.

RE: Feud

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Craig: Referring to dictionaries and using the word Oxford while you're at it are two ways to demonstrate to everyone how much of an elitist bully you truly are, and to lose the war of public opinion among the many millions of people who read this illustrious forum. Here, let's have a look at how the word "dictator" is used in MY favorite dictionary.

1 (Dictator-for-life Santa): "A fat, balding, injury-prone chemistry teacher who thinks he's cool and beats off to Hentai." Wow, that almost sounds more like you than like Trump.

2 (Online Dictator): "An internet troll that tries to tell others what to do". Wow, also you. Way moreso actually. Ok the grammar on that one was not perfect (the word "that" should have been "who") but close enough.

The personal property of the neighbors is manicured precisely because the bully living there takes his leaf blower and blows the leaves from his property onto my friend's property every day in the fall (that's autumn for you, or springtime technically, with your backwards seasons and toilets that flow in the wrong direction). He also pays his immigrant laborer to come over and illegally cut down things on my friend's property that he does not like. I got the immigrant laborer to admit to it while secretly taping him (legal in the state of Ohio). Me lobbing a dissolving balloon onto his property is simple eye-for-eye, hence my reference to the Code of Harambe, which you should know about with your illustrious academic accolades. And I will never get caught. If a banana falls in the forest and no one sees it...

If Lancellot has an issue with me, he's welcome to weigh in. I haven't done it yet, and if I do, I will never admit to it. It's not his lawn and he is not the one blowing leaves. Lancellot is also black, and these people are white Italians. Sounds like you're desperately searching for allies.

I haven't seen much evidence yet that you know the Bible well at all, as you quoted the most cliche and over-quoted Bible passage about wealth, which suggests that the young man in question might have inherited his wealth rather than using capitalistic practices to obtain it. Why don't you go start a thread in the religion forum telling us how much of a loser Jesus was and how great Dawkins is. Let's see what you've got. By the way, there are various other financial parabolas from Jesus that go in a rather unexpected direction and might not play quite so cleanly with your convenient narrative, such as the parables of the talents, the day laborers, and the virgins with the lamps. Tell us about these three parables please, dear Rabbi.

So, you demanded what I have done for the unfortunate (I just answered with what I have done this week), you call it unimpressive, and you refuse to answer it yourself. Great. This is further evidence that you're just a bully.

Steve: based on no physical evidence, and personal testimony from one witness and various folks she complained to afterwards, Trump was found liable for sexual abuse. You can use your definition of rape all you want. It's not the legal definition in New York, nor the definition of rape I would use in the context of a brothel. I'm sure you will continue to call Trump a rapist no matter what I say. So have fun with what.

RE: Feud

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Harambe:

1. You're trying to be funny, I gather. It's still not working.

2. So, using the most definitive reference for the English language makes me elitist? Interesting. What does citing definitions by people with equally inflated opinions of their comedic talent as you say about you?

3. Re: you and Lancellot. I wouldn't want either of you for an ally if Genghis Khan was available. I prefer moderation.

4. I don't know why the gun-loving person at Cincinnati Zoo bothered with you; you're pretty good at shooting yourself (in the foot, at least). Did it occur to you before your fingers hit the keys that there might be a reason the passage I quoted is "the most cliche and over-quoted" one? Want some others that address the "laying up of riches"? Here you go:

Matthew 6:19-21
Luke 12:15-21
1 Timothy 6:9-10
James 5:1-15
Revelation 3:17
Proverbs 11:28
Ecclesiastes 5:10

Tag, you're it.

If I was a bully, I would list the things I do for my literal neighbours, my community, and my financial contributions to my chosen charities. That I don't simply indicates that I see some merit in the suggestion contained in Matthew 6:1-4. Oh, and no, I'm not expecting a reward from my Father in heaven. The only motivation we poor atheists have is that it's the decent thing to do.

RE: Feud

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CD, it's not important to me whether you find me impressive or funny or not. You are right to focus on your local community first; I commend that. Did you even grow up reading the Bible though? This is a serious question, as your choice of passages suggests someone who is trying to win an argument, but has a narrow understanding.

Matthew 6:19-21: Yes that's a good passage. You don't believe in heaven though, so not sure why you would quote it.

Luke 12: congratulations on repeating the same passage that I cited in the first place about the guy who builds bigger barns to store his grain. Did you even read these, or did you just Google and drop in a bunch of scripture references that someone else harvested for you?

1 Timothy 6: I was not talking about the desire to "get rich". I was talking about the practical need for the accumulation of capital in order to scale needs with solutions. Automation, precision manufacturing, supply chain financing, these did not exist in its modern form 2000 years ago.

James 5: it's apparent you didn't read this passage or you would not have quoted verses 1-15. You would have quoted verses 1-5, as 6-15 have nothing to do with the subject. Unless that was a typo on your part.

Revelation 3:17: read the next verse after it: "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich".

Proverbs 11:28: read the next verse after it

Ecclesiastes 5: read the entire passage. "I have seen a grievous evil under the sun:
wealth hoarded to the harm of its owners, or wealth lost through some misfortune, so that when they have children there is nothing left for them to inherit". It's a little more complex than you indicated.

The Bible has a great deal more to say about wealth, economics, generosity and the poor and it does not support a political narrative. There is teaching on gleanings (Leviticus 19, turned into an entire story in the book of Ruth). There is the story of Joseph in Egypt. Now please go back and respond to the three passages I mentioned above on the wise and unwise virgins, the talents, and the workers. If you don't know where to find them, I'll help you. Every kid I grew up with knows these verses by the way so I'm expecting you do too.

RE: Feud
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RE: Feud

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Great, I look forward to hearing a more complex discussion than the one your original posts indicated you might be capable of. I've sat through a few sermons myself, across a few denominations. I don't claim to be an expert, just interested enough in the subject to care.

RE: Feud

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I don't really see it as my job to educate people on what the Bible says; it goes somewhat against the grain. However, when they misquote or misinterpret it to me to prove a point, I'm likely to respond by fighting fire with fire. I suppose I was hoping you'd understand it well enough not to need to spoonfeed you its meaning.

Matthew 6:19-21. No disagreement, apparently.

Luke 12:15-21. Yes, it supports my case more than yours, hence I include it in my list. Nowhere does it advocate stockpiling riches. Instead, it warns against the futility of wanting more and more. Specifically, it states "be on your guard against every form of greed".

1 Timothy 6:1. Specifically warns against "those who want to get rich". How many hundreds of references do I have to provide concerning Trump's endless boasting of how rich he is and how important that is to him? And do you seriously doubt that it is this golden carrot he (quite ridiculously) dangles in front of his adoring throng that draws them to him?

James 5. Yes, 15 was a typo, it's 1-5. Hope your mate Donny has read verse 1. For once, I'd like to see a biblical prophecy come true.

Revelation 3:17. And you accuse me of obtuseness? Verse 17 obviously refers to the person who is proud of their acquisition of worldly wealth. Verse 18 has nothing to do with material riches. It is admonishing the reader to lay up spiritual riches. Again, reinforcing my point.
Proverbs 11:28. Again, this verse warns against relying on wealth. The verse following says nothing to contradict that. It points out that 1) Those who cause strife for their servants or families will inherit the wind. In the words of Matthew Henry: "All they will get by these arts will not only be empty and worthless as the wind, but noisy and troublesome, vanity and vexation." and 2) those who are frivoulous will be "owned" by those who are diligent. Nothing whatsoever about making money at all costs.

Ecclesiastes 5:10. Is exactly what I was talking about; probably the best example of it. People who love money (like Trump, and certain persons who shall remain nameless) can never get enough of it, they are never satisfied, and will go to any means to acquire more of it. I'm glad you suggested reading the whole chapter, because the same theme is repeated and reinforced over and over. Perhaps you think a single verse (v19) of the 20 contradicts all the exhortations to do honest labour (work), and be happy with a satisfactory existence. It doesn't. It simply says that if it should so happen we come into money and possessions, it's a gift - not something to be gained by grift, extortion or abuse. Take note, MAGA.

Any other biblical exegesis you'd like to discuss? If so, maybe we can do it on the religious forum, as I'm fairly sure Steve, Emma, Victoria and even Lancellot aren't digging this.

RE: Feud

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I am not going to pretend to have theological background as illustrious as Craig, but I did go to a CofE school, and was a Calvinist who attended Bible Study for an unhappy period in my life.

The Bible, in my opinion, was the creation of the educated and contained the means within it to ensure that hard workers remained so, in order to provide necessities for those who worked rather less hard at a higher level.

What became known as 'the Protestant work ethic' has certainly been used, and is still used today, to ensure the grafters keep grafting.

Biblical texts have been written, rewritten, amended and interpreted throughout history primarily by those that have and used to educate those that have not in a manner designed to keep them doing what those that have need them to do. Let's not forget that throughout history, and certainly at the time of the earliest editions of the holy writings, the vast majority of the workers could not read the words for themselves, and in many cases were actively prevented from doing so. Some strict Amish communities still insist the bible may only be read in German whilst denying the general populace the opportunity to learn German.

The King James version, much prized by my Calvinist Bible study group is so-called because King James had it translated again by scholars working for him. He wanted this translation to be his legacy, he wanted the people to think we'll of him and, frankly, he wanted to look a bit less unholy than he really was, so he ordered that the translation should be less hellfire and brimstone.

And it has long been my contention that the new testament was designed to sell the religion to a wider audience of people who had rather more indulgent gods, who might be more inclined to 'buy' loving your fellow man and a bit more relaxation on what could be eaten and worn.

Of course, it's only an opinion, but frankly, none of us were there or met any of the people who wrote and rewrote, added and subtracted, all we are really left with is interpretations to argue over. The fact that so many different schools of thought have arisen from this text indicates just how open it is to interpretation and always has been.

Sorry, yes, probably better in the religion thread.

RE: Feud

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I'm so sorry, Emma. As an ex-Calvinist myself, I feel your pain.

RE: Feud

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It was not a good time. It was a manipulative cult that prayed on my vulnerabilities at the time. It informed a lot of my later developed feelings about the establishment of religion and the Bible itself, including the one expounded in my previous post.