Messages

RE: Are we there yet?
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RE: Are we there yet?

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First, there is no question in my mind, that musk, had something to do with the idea of the Afrikaner Farmers refugee plan...

At a time when there are areas in the world where there is actual genocide going on, it seems clear to me...this is all a matter of the color of one's skin.
and frankly I couldn't care who here on this forum thinks differently.

We can all have our own opinions, but what trump did was to ignore the words of the president of South Africa, and he showed him no respect at all,

trump, was asked why he created an expedited path for the Afrikaners, and he replied, as follows..and I watched him as he spoke.

"Because they're being killed, and we don't want to see people be killed" ...

ending that sentence with.
"but it's a genocide that's taking place that you people don't want to write about"

He also added that
"White Farmers are being brutally killed and their land is being confiscated"

Showing pictures, and I believe a video..

Here is a comment made by a South African official.

"it is ironic that the executive order makes provision for refugee groups in South Africa that remains amongst the most economically privileged, while vulnerable people in the U. S, from other parts of the world, are being deported and denied asylum despite real hardships"

I have read pages and pages of information concerning the crime that has been going on, and it has been said indeed the Black South Africans have been committing crimes, of robbing, and violence, but much of it is in the poorer sections of the country..and they are those that are unemployed, or underemployed.

It is also clear to me, that such crimes are Not acceptable, however, No crime is acceptable to me, but the facts do not substantiate trump's assumptions of genocide...

It is musk that is behind this, a man that was brought up in South African under the old system of the separation of Blacks and Whites..

It might be a god idea, if some are interested in information that discusses this subject in great detail, to do the research...My opinions are mine..

I have read enough that I am convinced that trump is exactly the man I have always thought he was...yet those that feel differently, have every right to do so.

Indeed South African is seeing a difficult time with internal violence, but I do not excuse criminal activity because of poverty, Black or White...None!

Just Some Thoughts

RE: Are we there yet?

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I didn't know anything about the meeting or much about South Africa so I watched it with an open mind in its entirety. Here is a general summary and transcript.

Trump opened alluding nonspecifically to Ramaphosa's checkered reputation. Ramaphosa's opening response was friendly, non-confrontational, gracious, polished. I liked his voice, which reminds me of a dear friend of mine who died recently.

Pleasantries continued back and forth for a bit. Ramaphosa thanked Trump for Covid respirators. Trump complimented Ramaphosa for bravely wading into some conflict as a peacemaker. Then the media questions began. Gaza, India, Ukraine, Gaza. "India is my friend, Modi" - Trump. lol.

After Trump shrugged off some irrelevant questions about Gaza, around 19 minutes in there was a super heated question about South Africa:

"What will it take for you to be convinced that there is no white genocide in South Africa?"

Ramaphosa: well I can answer that for the President. [laughter in the room]

Trump: I'd rather him answer it.

"It will take President Trump listening to the voices of South Africans, some of whom are his good friends, like those who are here... I'm not going to be repeating what I've been saying. I would say, if there was Africaner genocide, I can bet you these three gentlemen would not be here, including my minister of agriculture. So it will take him, President Trump, listening to their stories, to their perspective."

I paused the video at this point before seeing the reaction. This was not a great strategic choice of words on Ramaphosa's part. He should have said the middle sentence only. Right or wrong, it was obvious from Trump was going to respond. And he sure did.

Suddenly I hear a crazy video with some guy yelling about seizing land and killing anyone who stands in their way. It was some other guy yelling, apparently Julius Malema. Anyway, it appears someone fed Trump some information indicating that lots of South African farmers were being killed. Relative to South Africa's absurdly high murder rate, BBC says the number isn't that high and that the crosses that Trump is showing in the video are part of a demonstration, not actual graves. I'll research this more later. Getting back to the video:

Ramaphosa (calmly): Have they told you where that is, Mr. President? I'd like to know where that is, because this I've never seen.

Trump: I mean, it's in South Africa.

Ramaphosa: we need to find out.

[video continues playing awkwardly in background. JD Vance at this point passed Trump a series of pictures which he is about to show of various white farmers allegedly killed, one of which will turn out to not be from South Africa.]

A reporter breaks the silence: "Mr President, the Pentagon announced they would be accepting a Qatari jet to be used as Air Force One --"

Trump: what are you talking about?

Some lady: can we have a South Africa question please?

Trump: goes on a tirade against NBC and their dumb reporting, calls the reporter a disgrace and a terrible reporter, etc.

Some lady: please can we have a South Africa question, Mr. President?

Trump: he's a terrible reporter

Random man yells: if they're committing genocide, why invite them to the White House?

Trump: QUIET

Man: I'll be quiet. That's my question though.

Female reporter from South Africa: what would you like President Ramaphosa to do about the situation in --

Trump (now 28 minutes into video): I don’t know. I DON'T know. Look. These are articles over the last few days. (He starts going through the list of papers). Death of... (he looks at the first page, confused, as he probably was not briefed properly on it first) -- people. (Flips to next page). Death. (Next page). Death. Horrible death. Death. I don't know. (He picks one up and looks at it). Pick any one. White South Africans are fleeing because of the violence and racist laws. .. So when you say what would I like to do, I don't know what to do. White South African couples say that they were attacked violently.

Angry South African lady: why don't you go and see for yourself if it is true

Trump: well I can do that. Look, here's burial sites all over the place. These are all white farmers that are being buried.

How does it get worse? And these are people that are officials. They're saying, kill the white farmers and take their land. And I have other friends in South Africa, people that left, one in particular that says you can't go there. They take your land, and they kill you. It's ok, they say it's ok to do. Look, this is recent.. .

Those are officials... In office. One March, they had a dance in your parliament, whatever you call it, legislature.

Ramaphosa: let me clarify that. Because what you saw, the speeches you saw being made, that is not government policy. We have a multiparty democracy in South Africa that allows people to express themselves, political parties to adhere to various policies. And in many cases, in some cases, those policies do not go along with government policy. Our government policy is completely, completely against what he was saying, even in the parliament. And they're a small minority party which is allowed to exist in terms of our constitution.

Trump: but you do allow them to take land?

Ramaphosa: nononono! Nobody can take land.

Trump: and then when they take the land, they kill the white farmer.

Ramaphosa: no, there is criminality in our country. People who do get killed unfortunately through criminal activity are not only white people. The majority of them are black people.

But coming back to this issue, which I really would like us to talk about, very calmly. We were taught by Nelson Mandela that whenever there are problems, people need to sit down around a table and talk about them. And this is precisely would we would like to talk about, including of course trade matters, investment matters. So the issues which concern you, as the United States --

Trump: those are all deaths.

Ramaphosa: In many ways, one should say, you are a partner of South Africa. And you are raising concerns, and these are concerns that we are willing to talk to you about. Let me just add quickly. You know, the criminality that we are experiencing in our country needs quite a lot of technological capability. In one of our areas of South Africa we're using US technology, which is able to in many ways identify where shootings are happening and all that. And I want to talk about that. Becuase there is support that we can get from you, the United States, to help us deal with all these acts of criminality. And that is what I believe partnership is all about. And we are here as a partner so that we can help each other whenever there are challenges. So I'd like us to discuss it, and of course outside of the media, so that we sit down and have a really good discussion that will lead to good outcomes.

[note: South Africa's murder rate is 8x higher than in the US]

Reporter: are there other punitive measures should you not be satisfied that South Africa is fixing some of the very bad things that you tweeted are happening?

Trump: well there are a lot of bad things happening in many countries but this in particular has been very bad, very bad. And becuase we're gonna have the whole world watching in a short period of time, because you have the G20, and that's a big deal. And it seems like... (shakes his head) I want you to look good. I don't want you to look bad. But we have hundreds, thousands of people leaving the country and their land is going to be confiscated. Etc etc [skipping some redundancy]

Ramaphosa: here, let's have my agro minister talk.

Agro minister: etc etc yeah we have a problem but most farmers are staying in the country

Ramaphosa: and we're COMPLETELY against that guy you showed on the video. He's a small minority.

Trump: he doesn't seem like a small minority. He's filling a packed stadium.

[looks like he has 10% of the population supporting him]

Another South African guy in farming talks about crime

South African golfer: some stuff thanking Trump, and it's really important for us to have your support and get the change we need.

Trump: [impressed] boy did you do that well. He did that even better than he plays golf!

SA minister: We've got gang warfare. We need your help sir. And we need Elon technology.

Ramaphosa: crime really thrives where there is inequality and unemployment. And that is one of the reasons that has brought us here, to improve our investment relations, our trade relations, so that we can preserve the number of jobs that your companies have created in South Africa. By virtue of what we export to you, we are able to create up to 500,000 jobs in the auto industry, in the agricultural industry, and a number of other industries, mining, where we export things to you. And we also know that as South African companies invest here, you are also able to create jobs. So it's a mutually beneficial relationship. So our main, our real reason for being here is to foster trade and investment so that we are able to grow our economy with your support and so that we are also able to address all these societal problems because criminality thrives when people are unemployed, when they have no other hope to eke out a living. So that is what we need to resolve. And your support, your partnership with us, is what is really going to give us a strong capability to move forward.

Trump interviews South African expat farmers (planted by his staff or not, I'm not sure, but they didn't seem like shills) about the safety on their farms. Some of them describe various attacks on their families and safety measures they have taken.

Other information in the press conference: Apparently there are 600 US companies in South Africa. Unemployment is around 28%. One of the ministers said they pay above asking price when they take property by eminent domain. Black elderly women are being raped and murdered, moreso than white folks.

End of conference: Trump talking about how he wants to save lives in different countries, and then telling the golfers how they have a tough job and how he respects champions. Trump was asked he would attend the G7 and G20 summits, and he said yes. Ramaphosa said South Africa has been hosting the G20 and will be handing it over to the US, who originated it.

Summary: Ramaphosa and his team were well prepared and handled Team Trump very well, and will likely get what they want in negotiations because of their maturity.

Parting comment: I, Harambe, actually have a brother who is invested in agricultural business in South Africa. He's playing carefully and not buying land. I will ask him in more detail about this later this week. Yes, South Africa had a period of retribution against white landholders, I think the the 90s. I believe it's less severe now but I am not sure. The main issue as reflected in this meeting is general black-on-black crime. They have more annual murders than the US has. I did not do other research as I wanted to provide an unbiased transcript here.

RE: Are we there yet?

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Believe it or not, quite a few white South Africans live in the Channel Islands. I'd not met any before we moved to Sark.

We were quite friendly with a couple who owned a farm over there. They left because of concerns about violence towards farmers.

It's a difficult situation. Chatting to the lady, she was reluctant to talk at first, but once she opened up it was a fascinating insight into a different world. Honestly, it was like something out of the Raj (different continent, but similar colonial heritage). Fundamentally, they owned the farm. The black people did the actual farming (contrary to popular British colonial views, Black Africans DO know how to farm). The black people were also servants in the house (not as bad as it sounds, there's employment requirements. A friend of mine worked as a teacher in rural Malaysia and was provided with a housekeeper that she did not want, but it was expected).

The net result of all this is something of a perpetuation of colonial attitudes, very prevalent in the WSA's I met (it should be pointed out that they were all very wealthy, one reason why they were in the CI, so possibly not really a good cross section of the demographic). Lovely people but, shall we say, old fashioned?

The difficulty for me is that whilst the treatment of WSA farmers is by no means right on any level, this is a country that still saw lynchings in the 80s. There is a lot of bad blood, there, and it's hard to know how to resolve it and also, whilst having every sympathy for individuals living in fear, difficult to have sympathy for the collective because of HOW the land came to be in white hands in the first place.

RE: Are we there yet?

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Harambe, i have to say that your original response to my post was so absolutely typical of what many Trump supporters do that it was eye-watering. You took the most petty point you could find and attacked me on it - almost always an attempt to evade the question of whether or not the President is in any way at all a suitable holder of the position he occupies.

That he was elected has nothing to do with it. Or would you, as a German in the 1930's have urged your countrymen to respectfully follow Hitler?

You may notice that I used lower case to describe the other president in the room as well. Didn't you want to defend him?

Thanks for providing more context. It does absolutely nothing to detract from the obvious that Trump spewed a barrage of obvious lies. I am not an expert on South Africa, but I knew without a shadow of a doubt that the 'evidence' Trump presented was false or fake. Since the meeting that has been proven- the video of a thousand grave sites was a memorial for one slain couple and the photos of dead farmers were taken in the republic of Congo.

So there are only two possibilities:
1. Trump knew the pictures and video were not what he said

or

2. Trump is so ignorant that despite the researchers and experts he has on hand to brief him, he somehow thought they were genuine.

In either case - cruel liar or incompetent fool - the fact that you continue to respect him and instead attack his opponents is telling.

RE: Are we there yet?

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BTW there are many, many white South Africans living here in New Zealand. I know a number of them and have talked to them about their reasons for moving here. In every case it has to do with violence and feeling unsafe, but that violence, often carried out by criminal gangs has very little to do with race. Unsurprisingly the majority of criminals are from the majority black population, but they don't care whether the people they attack are white or black, thay are after anyone with money.

Home invasions, carjackings and kidnapping target the rich. Most of the rich are white, which is why we get more white SA's emigrating here - they are the ones who can afford it.

RE: Are we there yet?
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RE: Are we there yet?

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My comments, are simply my opinion, gathered from what I've read and seen.

trump knows what he's doing...and it is to plant the idea that the white South Afrikaner farmers, are being discriminated against by the government of that country...thus allowing him to offer these people special treatment as refugees...

As if the lives of those people must be considered, Above the lives of all others in the world that are living day by day in conditions far more ugly.

Yes the violence that is going on in South African must be addressed, and I for one would like to see more done...so that All of the people there can feel, and be safe.

My complaint is the obvious efforts of trump to disgrace the president of South Africa, a Black man that without question, trump would never respect.

This is all a show for trump, he plays to his audience, and then sits back and enjoys his lies, and misinformation.

Sadly some seem to be more concerned about the way someone chooses to spell his name, ignoring the names he calls others and the lack of respect that is part of his lifestyle.

But to each his own.

I have no friends from South Africa, so I'm not able to say I've had any conversations, yet what I've read comes from different areas of thought.

I have followed the work of a minister and gospel singer from there for some time...actually having to seek interpretation of their songs...

In doing that I have also read, of the serious acts of violence that have been a part of the lives of people
in that country.

I make no excuse for any of that, None, but my concerns are that the president of the United States, does not speak the truth...and I don't think he even cares...it simply suits his efforts to get his message across...and he knows that many will never question
what he says.

Just Some Thoughts

RE: Are we there yet?

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Steve,

As an American, perhaps I should give trump, the honor of the capitalization of his name...but I feel no guilt in not doing so..None!...and I never will.

It is my right to reserve that honor for those I feel deserve it...no matter how much some feel it is not correct to do so...

Just Some Thoughts

RE: Are we there yet?

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Harambe, I have no idea whether ALL of the photos were 'fake' or only SOME. Does it matter.

Why don't you simply address the main point.

I have seen some reports that claim the actual number of white farmer deaths at the hands of blacks over the last few years is in single figures. Trump sat there and waved those fake documents about and had that bizarre video played claiming that every cross was the actual burial site - a thousand of them.

Admit it, the man is unworthy of the office. I'm sorry to say it but no other country would tolerate the crimes, the embarrassment, the corruption, the inappropriate language and conduct...

For goodness sake - do something to work towards having him removed.