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Mike Stevens
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I Posted This Elsewhere, But...

   Thread Started October 4 at 1:41PM

<< Thread Modifed October 4 at 1:58PM >>

Winner!

Of the all time asinine saying contest--"Guns don't kill people, people kill people,' that's like saying, 'Cars who sit at the bar till 2 am and choose to drive home drunk don't kill people, the stupid drunk asshole who careens down the highway, weaving back and forth across all four lanes does'; of course guns kill people, they're inanimate metal objects with no brain, who don't give a shit if you pull the trigger or sing show tunes. Come on, people!



gloria ...
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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 4, 2017 11:17 PM

So when Americans rightly want to talk about gun control after an unprecedented act of domestic terrorism Trump supporters say, "Shame how the left had to make this political instead of mourning the loss of Americans." Four Canadians were among the 58 murdered in Vegas.

But instead of talking gun control and about making it a crime to retrofit semi-automatics into machine guns and carting 23 of them into two adjoining hotel rooms to shower 16 hundred rounds of AP bullets designed to penetrate armor into a crowd of country music fans there's no need to get exercised about it. In America these things can be fixed with thoughts and prayers.

How odd that when a massacre of unspeakable dimensions occurs on American soil, by an American citizen, these folks think people should just mourn yet they think Trump is real man when he uses every tragedy around the world to advance his own political agenda.

Shame on the hypocritical right!

The time to talk about gun control is now. Politicians would do well to get out of the hip pockets of lobbyists like the National Rifle Association who helped stoke the anti-establishment, populist rage that gave America president Trump.

Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it. ... Mark Twain


pipersfancy
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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 5, 2017 02:02 AM
So many terrible crimes committed, and lives lost, due to a lack of any meaningful discussion (and follow-through) on gun control laws.

In my mind, Sandy Hook was a turning point. Thoughts and prayers for the families... yes, fine, of course... but when law makers did NOTHING to change the ease with which firearms are obtained... well, it seemed to me to be tantamount to declaring that it's ok to kill children or (apparently) people in nightclubs, concert goers or anyone else that happens to be in the *wrong* place these days.

God knows, we have our own serious problems in Canada. I just know that I feel safer with our gun control laws in place, and statistics that back up that feeling of safety. Canadians, Australians, and all citizens of other countries with strict gun control laws are far less likely to find themselves in a mass shooting event.


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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 5, 2017 02:31 AM
The self-defence argument isn't much better. This latest massacre occurred in an open-carry state. The lax gun laws didn't save any lives, here, did they?

Then we have the, 'but criminals will still get guns', argument. Well, yes. But it will be a lot harder, and a lot more expensive for them to get them on the black market than it is for them to just walk into Wal-Mart and buy them.

Closely followed by the 'knives kill too, whaddya gonna do, ban all knives?' argument.

Yes, knives do kill, but that is not every knife's main function. A kitchen knife CAN be used for that purpose, but we also need it to chop food with. What else do you do with an automatic rifle? I'd also like to see someone slaughter 58 people in a few minutes with a knife. (Actually, I wouldn't LIKE to see it, but you know what I mean).

Anyway, in the UK, some knives are banned. Flick knives, stillettos - you know, the ones designed as weapons, rather than useful tools. Not all guns have to be banned. In fact, I can't think of a single country where no guns are allowed at all. There are some practical reasons for owning, say, a shotgun.

'But without guns, we'll be at the mercy of a controlling government' - Pffft. Yeah, right. This isn't going to be a wild west shoot out with the sheriff. Does anybody really think, if some nutjob dictator took charge of America, the civillians would all be able to defeat him by turning up at the white house armed? Seriously?

The American government GAVE the American people the right to bear arms. That means they KNOW. That means they make damn sure they've got better weapons, a crack team of guards, etc. You don't think they'd seriously have allowed the people to run around with guns for all these years without being prepared, do you?

They don't have to take away Americans' guns to control them. Letting them keep them is a far more effective method of control.



gloria ...
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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 5, 2017 10:32 PM << Modifed October 5 at 10:38PM >>
Course we might not remember, or have even known at the time it was done so furtively, that Trump signed a bill into law just before his speech to the joint session of Congress in February this year making it easier for mentally ill people to purchase guns.

Just before he delivered his remarks, Trump quietly signed a bill undoing an Obama-era regulation that had made it more difficult for people with mental illness to buy guns.

It was a political favour to the National Rifle Association in return for their support to Trump's campaign for presidency.


EDIT

to add, it's also worth noting that the National Rifle Association is pouring money into the hotly contested Alabama senate seat.

10:38 PM EST
2017-10-05


gloria ...
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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 8, 2017 12:47 AM
How utterly bizarre Trump signed a bill to make it easier for mentally ill people to purchase guns in February and with the Vegas massacre in October he glosses over the entire issue.

But then everything about this presidency is bizarre. 33,000 jobs were lost for the first time in seven years last month, and not a word out of Trump. He keeps touting the stock market as his success, yet his budget cycle doesn't begin until October. And being a summa cum laude graduate of Wharton's University of Economics perhaps the president can articulate exactly what policies he has implemented to bring about any changes.

I read an article that says 78% of Americans own no guns, 19% of Americans own 50% and 3% own the other fifty percent.

Instead of picking fights with everyone under the sun to satisfy his need for self-created chaos, the president might develop even one policy.





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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 8, 2017 01:40 AM
And what the heck is up with the president of the United States of America tweeting this today?

Presidents and their administrations have been talking to North Korea for 25 years, agreements made and massive amounts of money paid hasn't worked, agreements violated before the ink was dry, makings fools of U.S. negotiators. Sorry, but only one thing will work!

I'll just leave the typo in because Trump put it in there. Well by all means Mister President instead of announcing your intentions, (a move you endlessly criticized your predecessor for) why don't you just SHOW everyone how it's done instead of making a fool out of everyone including your Secretary of State. Nobody likes a banzai bully for a boss.




gloria ...
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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 8, 2017 08:01 PM << Modifed October 8 at 8:13PM >>
The National Rifle Association of America (NRA) is an American non-profit organization which advocates for gun rights. Founded in 1871, the group has informed its members about firearm-related bills since 1934, and it has directly lobbied for and against legislation since 1975.

One YEAR ago the NRA's latest campaign took aim at Australia's gun laws and the "infidels of freedom". Can you imagine it?! An American non-profit messing around in another country's politics? Who knew? ;-)

If you are looking for another side of any discussion visit Reddit.

EDIT

to add The National Rifle Association, (NRA) a powerful lobbying group in the United States that advocates fewer gun controls, has been actively involved in trying to abolish Canada's long-gun registry for more than a decade. Oh yes, those were fun debates.

8:12 PM EST
2017-10-08





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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 9, 2017 04:11 AM
I'm ashamed to admit that I wasn't aware of the extent of the NRA's activities. They have become to many of us simply a symbol of the "bad guys".

The problem with that is it takes away our diligence and reduces the weight of our arguments. It leaves us answering slogans with slogans of our own. We end up debating idiocy like "guns don't kill people, people kill people" as Gloria pointed our elsewhere as logical nonsense.

A "NON-PROFIT" organization? The absurdity speaks for itself doesn't it. But then, we call televangelists tooling around towns in Bentleys non-profit as well. Indeed, Trump signed an order giving them the power to throw their influence and CASH behind the political candidates of their choice ... may as well back it up with some firepower, yes?

The NRA has come out against regulations against the devices used to alter semi-automatic rifles into automatic rifles ie the devices that enabled this psycho in Vegas to exponentially up the kill and injury rate in his rampage.

Can ANYONE tell me why without using a slogan or a cliche? Why do we need a device that increases the kill efficiency of an already deadly weapon?

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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 9, 2017 05:08 AM << Modifed October 9 at 5:28PM >>
I don't think this qualifies as a slogan, but I think it is perhaps a possible answer to the NRA's favourite piece of drivel...

Guns don't kill people...

people who make their livelihood selling machines designed to destroy life, who run roughshod over the despair of grieving relatives by spouting their vile rhetoric after every single mass killing, who regard their "right" to own a weapon designed to kill as more sacrosanct than the right of a person to freely go about their business without the constant fear that somewhere in their vicinity is a lunatic with a deadly weapon...

these people kill people.

[edited to add]

The NRA line reminds me a great deal of the tobacco companies' defence: it's people's right to smoke, so not providing them with cancer sticks would be infringing on their civil liberties. Of course, I'm not arguing against peoples' right to do whatever they like if it doesn't harm someone else, but the attitude taken by courts towards the tobacco companies in several cases involving massive payouts was that they provided the tools for people to commit self harm, and they (big tobacco) were made to pay for damage inflicted. Perhaps if the government and private individuals, such as the families of victims of mass shootings. started suing weapons manufacturers and distributors and the NRA for punitive damages, it might be some disincentive?


gloria ...
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RE: I Posted This Elsewhere, But...
Reply on October 10, 2017 02:41 AM << Modifed October 10 at 2:43AM >>
Mike, it's cheeky how involved the American NRA has been in lobbying to abolish Canadian and other countries gun laws because they want to prohibit legislation. I guess that's why we have the right to speak out about the issue.

After the NRA has donated tens of millions of dollars to the Republican and Democratic party campaigns you really do have to wonder how they maintain their non-profit status. I'm not sure how the American system works, but in Canada they would lose their charitable status with that kind of income and influence over government. lol

Craig, I was thinking along the same lines as you regarding smoking vis-á-vis gun control. Certainly laws are in place that prohibit smoking in public places, and even vehicles if anyone in the car is under eighteen because second hand smoke causes illnesses with all the resultant health-care costs.

But I don't think changes are going to come anytime soon, but still it's a good idea.



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