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michaelcahill
rumours and innuendos
rumours of innuendos

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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 28, 2017 05:32 AM
It's true, capitalism cannot work. It's also true that socialism cannot work.

The only thing that CAN work is a hybrid. In the 1920s, capitalism ran unregulated and rampant here in the U.S. and the result was just as you say, Emma. It collapsed, or crashed as in the great depression.

The remedy was socialism. FDR instituted make work programs and passed out welfare etc. AND we recovered.

Monopolies WERE banned here at one time. There WERE regulations. I don't know where they went, but NOW there are ZERO mom and pop businesses. There is Walmart. Government kisses Walmarts ass to get Walmart tax dollars and Walmart gets rich and no one can compete with Walmart. Capitalism at its purist. That's the problem and it's in every field of endeavor. The right TALKS about eliminating restrictions and regulations to PROMOTE competition. THAT IS THE LIE allowing them to monopolize everything.

Controlled capitalism with plenty of socialism mixed in to insure everyone is taken care of AND to allow anyone with the wherewithal to go for their dreams is what a successful recipe for the U.S. would be.

We did have it at one time. Sorry to tell the Republicans, it's a liberal form of government.

Of course, it can't go too far to the left either for obvious reasons.

The answer is somewhere in the middle, closer to the right than I care for and closer to the left than most conservatives care for.

Our country is so screwed up at this point, I don't even know if that can exist any longer. Capitalism is rampant and has a stranglehold on the White House and the government at ALL levels.

I'm rambling as usual. Hopefully there's something useful in there somewhere. LOL

One of these days I'll prepare something and post it. But it's more fun like this. :))


Sarkems
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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 28, 2017 06:06 AM
No, it all makes sense, but I do think 'socialism cannot work' is a lie we've been fed. Whilst I might agree that a combination seems to do well, I think it might depend upon a definition of 'doing well'.

Many point to the supposed innovations of entrepreneurial Capitalism, but is it really true to say that socialism negates that?

Let's look at the pissing-up-the wall contest between capitalism and communism we all know as 'the space race'. Sure, the capitalist nation won on the day, but also exposed a problem with the capitalist mantra of winning the race being the most important thing. The 'losers' actually went on to be far more innovative in space technology than the winners. The ISS is built to the same specs as the Mir space station, a Russian innovation. Whilst Nasa were pissing about sending men up to play golf on the moon, Russia continued to develop space-related technology still used today. Without a race, Capitalism loses interest, because it doesn't do things for the benefit of improving or learning for its own sake, or for the wider value it may bring.

Now, I'm not advocating Totalitarian communism, but I'm pointing out that a more socialistic model CAN be innovative.

And I think of what has been lost in my own country, as we've sped more towards capitalism. Basically, if it isn't going to make you money, don't do it. That isn't just feeding the poor, or helping the sick, it's learning anything for its own sake. Arts programmes are being cut left, right and centre in universities and schools because 'those courses won't get you a job'. If you aren't part of the money-making machine, you have no value. So nothing that doesn't make money has value. High culture has no value because it doesn't make anybody rich. Art that isn't 'commercial' has no value because it won't make the artist rich. 'Culture' today consists of reality TV (cheap to make, big profits, no-one needs special training) and you tube sensations.

The UK used to be the envy of the world for its theatre, which was government subsidised, like the Russian Ballet. Now, it's a poor thing. Many small theatres have closed. No money = no benefit apparently, and because theatres don't make somebody rich, they aren't worth having.

Everything is about minimum outlay, maximum profit. Socialism values humanity rather more than that, but somehow we've come to see it as something which 'can't work'. Why not? When was the last time it was really tried? Not Totalitarianism, not communist dictatorships, but socialism. Kibbutz on a grand scale.

But socialism can't work, can it? I think it could, we just don't really want it to. Because the individual won't be king, and we've lived too long with that mantra, we think it is what we really want.

I think maybe we should think again.


Sarkems
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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 28, 2017 06:33 AM
Also, it has to be said that a combination model seems to cause resentment and division between the haves and have nots in similar quantities to pure Capitalism.

Wouldn't it be better if work was something done for everyone and by everyone, rather than for the individual by the individual? Wouldn't it be better if, instead of welfare programs, everyone did what the could, and was valued for their contribution, regardless of how small it was?

Far from the long held fear that 'human nature' would leave some people doing all the work and others just coasting, isn't that what happens now, under capitalism? Even in a greater balance between socialism and capitalism?

However hard it might be, the time may come when we have to retrain our brains back to the notion that working for one IS in fact, working for all, and that people will more willingly make a contribution if that contribution is valued on a more equal level.


michaelcahill
rumours and innuendos
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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 28, 2017 06:35 AM << Modifed November 28 at 6:38AM >>
I recall when the U.S. was like the U.K. you describe. We learned dance, art, music and the like starting in grammar school AND we were decidedly a Capitalist country.

The thing is, we ARE NOT a capitalist country now. There is NO free enterprise here. I do NOT have the same opportunity that Walmart has nor am I allowed to play by the same rules.

It's a dictatorship. What it's called, I don't know. But it is not capitalism. We no longer have free enterprise AND we've also eliminated all education in the arts AND we've cut benefits in aid to everyone to below the bare minimum.

I didn't pay very much for my education and it was damn good. It's shocking what it costs now to go to even a second rate school for a poor education.

I've mentioned before, we voted to have the lottery here in California with 100 percent of the proceeds earmarked for education. It brings in tons of capitol. Yet, the quality of education goes down every year. No idea what happened there.

I'm rambling, I know.

I don't know what the model for a socialist government here would be. I can't imagine being in a system without incentive other than helping my fellow man even though I am one keen and willing to do so and have. What's the point of being brilliant if there's no recompense for it other than some good will? No, I don't need to own everything and I'm totally in favour of taxes up the wazoo to insure no one goes hungry or without shelter, education and equal opportunity.

Socialism will do that? I know Capitalism could if properly regulated and taxed. We've been there and let it get away. Is it gone? If it is, then our votes are meaningless and so is discussion. Otherwise, we can vote anyone in and we can vote anyone out.

Waking up seems to be the rub.

Mercy, I am a rambling tangent plagued dude. LOL


We posted at the same time again. Hmmm ... I'm not so sure human nature is so altruistic without a little discipline and some rules. Some are, most I know are not. I LIKE what you're saying, but I'm not so sure it's possible.


Sarkems
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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 28, 2017 02:25 PM << Modifed November 28 at 2:34PM >>
Mikey, the recompense doesn't have to be just good will. It just doesn't have to be money. Is that really the only reward for being brilliant? Maybe because we've been conditioned that it is, and also, we've been conditioned as to what constitutes 'brilliant'.

If we consider it unreasonable for, say, a doctor to earn the same as a roadsweeper because a doctor goes to college for all those years, etc, why, then, do we not consider it unreasonable that an actor, who does a third of the years in college, can gross millions more than a doctor. Why do we accept that sort of imbalance in terms of what someone is 'brilliant' at, and what they get paid for it, but wouldn't in terms of everyone getting more or less the same living standards?

People ask where the recompense would be for being a brilliant surgeon, when you could just sweep roads, but where's the recompense when you could just be in a film?

And nobody ever asks where the recompense is for the people who do the stuff that has to be done but is back breaking and paid badly.

Why do we expect financial recompense for being 'better' than someone else? On what scale are we rating our worth? If everybody were scientists and doctors, how important would the one man who knows how to dispose of the trash be?

We need to get past this idea of 'worth' and 'recompense' in monetary terms. And if we did away with the notion that a doctor, or a physicist, or a film actor is worth more in monetary value, perhaps we might start to appreciate what they are worth on a human level.

And maybe some folk who think sweeping roads and digging ditches is an easy option for the same money might just find themselves discovery that the value of the job they do isn't what it pays, but how it makes them feel, how physically or mentally demanding it is.

Do you really imagine that brilliant folk would be happy digging ditches? The recompense for being brilliant will be not having to dig ditches. And I bet it's take five minutes for people to work that out.

After all, there are easier careers than medicine, with higher payscales, yet people who have the brains to become top class lawyers, or CEOs still become doctors. Why do you think that is?

I think more people realise the advantages of their skills beyond mere financial gain than we think. And what they get from doing what they do extends beyond money. But money has become so important, it's all we can relate to.

Richness and poorness is about so much more than that, and if we took the constant need to have more things than the next man out of the equation, we'd fine value elsewhere.

Put simply, there's plenty of recompense to being brilliant over being a roadsweeper that has nothing to do with money. If money had nothing to do with it, where would you rather be? I'd far rather be a brilliant forensic scientist than a shop worker, and NOT because of the money. But I'm too thick for forensic science, or anything else much above the work I already do.



michaelcahill
rumours and innuendos
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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 29, 2017 02:32 AM
I've been happy digging ditches. Perhaps MORE happy than I have being under the stress of being in charge of EVERYTHING. Yeah, I know, who sez I is brilliant. LOL!

I'm sure you are well aware that as far as my thinking or philosophy goes, I'm in agreement conceptually with most of what you say.

Portraying me as one of those interested in what I can get out of a situation doesn't jibe with my fabulous success in life. I've no desire to walk all over anyone to achieve anything. Thus, I haven't. Yes, I realize that there are many ways to judge "achievement".

In any case, what you say sounds great to me. How much success do you think you'll have with the Evangelical Christians who support Roy Moore and Donald Trump?

On the other hand, this country WAS at one time closer to what you speak of by a long-shot than what we are now. I don't see why we couldn't return to a path in that direction.




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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 29, 2017 03:10 AM << Modifed November 29 at 3:12AM >>
I don't think you're going to have much success with the far-right Conservative Evangelicals they are totally brainwashed into believing child molester Roy Moore is being persecuted by the swamp monsters. But in the supermarket today I was mildly amused to see the president was on the front cover of the National Enquirer, one of Trump's new mouthpieces, as waging war on Scientology.

Trump'sSecret War on Scientology! is the National Enquirer cover story, claiming that the president is outraged after finding that a cult "spy" has infiltrated the Department of Justice." While it's true that the president has questioned Scientology's tax-free status, and equally true that the Bureau of Justice Assistance director nominee Jon Adler has pushed a highly dubious cult-backed drug detox program, he can hardly be called a spy," and there's little evidence that Trump knows what day of the week it is, let alone the religious affiliations of his appointees. True dat. Wonder what other pure fiction these folks are going to concoct next?





Sarkems
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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 29, 2017 03:23 AM
Wouldn't dream of portraying you in any light but lovely, Mikey. And certainly not out for what you, personally, can get.

I totally agree that it would be hard to persuade certain people, but there may come a time when there won't be much choice. Probably when only 20% of our respective countries' population are actually employed, and the other 80% are wandering around with time on their hands and empty bellies. Always dangerous, that.

Because the robots are coming. That's not hyperbole, or fake news, or conspiracy, it's already happening. At the moment, technology is just about creating enough jobs to compensate for the ones being lost, but that isn't going to last.

This might not be in our lifetime, but I anticipate it won't be long after I am dead. That's why Universal Basic Income is such a big conversation.

Capitalism is on its last legs, a victim of its own success. There is historical precedent for the collapse of advanced civilisations. All I'm saying is, it might be a good idea to start preparations for the changes to come, and one way to do that is to look at different ways of living.


michaelcahill
rumours and innuendos
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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 29, 2017 03:47 AM
All true I would say. I can't imagine any scenario to save us from total destruction to be honest. I don't see the eighty percent undemployed folk "wandering around". At least here, they'd be armed and TAKING what they needed to survive. There'd be nothing left of us in short order.

I'm guessing the rest of the world might bide their time and the ones with sense could emmigrate to the empty U.S. and form a nice society. I don't know.

You're right, the time to begin acting is now AND action is needed on several fronts. It's scary.

And for the record, the National Enquirer was in error when reporting I had fathered an ALIEN BABY. HELLO! If there's a New Mexico, then there's an Old Mexico. That's how the states work here. North Dakota, South Dakota etc. DUH. The baby is a citizen. Jeesh.


Sarkems
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RE: There is Sure to be Backlash
Reply on November 29, 2017 04:25 AM
Not just the US, Mikey, most of what used to be called the 'first world' countries.

I was abducted. Three days I spent on an alien space ship. At least, that's what I told my husband.

   
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