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mrsmajor
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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 6, 2017 09:26 AM


When millions of dollars are being awarded to people that have been abused by the clergy there has to be a reason...and it is well known, here in New York, that they were moved to other parishes, and not removed...this is not just a problem with the Catholic church, it happens in any church, in any group that has an authoritative system...but it has/had to be recognized and discussed...for the sake of those that are abused.

As I mentioned there have been members of the JW's that have been disfellowshipped because of their behavior, and so they should be...I think the concentration has been on the Catholic church because the acts were so well publicized, but that certainly doesn't mean the problem was not found in other denominations...there are dirty, nasty people all over the place, and many will never be found.

There was a time when a child might have their hand touched with a ruler, for misbehaving, or simply for giving an incorrect answer, I saw that many times as a child, but the laws are so strict now, that these things do not happen often..if at all...and if they should, there are consequences.

Teachers are to be given credit when it is due, not all are at their best, and I say that from the comments I have heard, and seen when they were not in view by the public... they are no different than any other group of people some are excellent, some are not...what is unfortunate is that some remain in the classroom when they should not be there...

I'm only speaking about the Public School system of New York City...I don't know anything about others...schools have been closed here, because of low graduation numbers, or the failure of large numbers of students that take city-wide tests...its only because some of these things had become serious enough to cause the need for concern, that one could see some changes.

I know we have discussed the subject of sexual abuse, in detail, but, (and I know some will not like what I say)....I don't believe every single thing I am hearing, and I don't think every incident happens with the intent to be abusive...without question there has been any number of women that have been disrespected, but what one may cause abuse, another may not...for instance, I once worked for a very large advertising agency, after I retired, and there was an atmosphere there that almost condoned the very things that some would call abuse.

But both men and woman were guilty, I've seen men kiss woman, against their will, and I've also seen women after a lunch that included alcohol, become quite frisky...does that mean they should be abused, of course not...but what I'm beginning to believe from what I read, is that woman have taken no responsibility for some of the things that have happened.

In some of the circumstance I'm talking about..it was the window/corner office that some of these woman, and men had their eye on...and they went along with whatever it took to get there...now you can call me horrible if you like, but I'm being honest and fair, and again I say, no one should be abused, at any time, never should a person be mistreated.

It seemed all cases of abuse are put into the same box, whether some woman have been touched, spoken to in a abusive sexual manner, makes a difference to me...

A man like moore, is a pedophile, and from what the women are saying he's not fit to be elected into any office of high esteem, neither should those that have been accused of abuse in the congress be allowed to remain..that means all of them...democrat republican or whatever they are.

The thing that bothers me is should they all be treated in the same way...should a man that might have spoken out of line, said something of a sexual nature, when he shouldn't have ..be thrown to the wolves, I think not.

I just can't believe everything I'm reading, although I may be alone with my thoughts, I think women have to take some responsibility for how they ALLOWED themselves to be treated...Now, please don't shoot me with your words, but if you feel you must go ahead...LOL...

Just Some Thoughts!






Sarkems
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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 6, 2017 12:07 PM
You're not alone, Mrs Major. I don't believe everything I hear either. As I said before, I've seen things escalate to the point of serious repercussions for the male involved, who happened to be innocent.

Fair play to you, Ingrid, for speaking about your horrendous abuse. What you said about women and children, and how abuse was perceived is what I was getting at in my earlier post. Children didn't have the same human rights as adults, or so it seemed. We accepted what was dealt to us by teachers, parents, religious leaders, partly because we were taught that adults were never in the wrong, and to question their actions was wrong, a lie, a wicked thing to say, etc.

In my own country, it's only been in the last 25 years that police have been able to intervene in what used to be called 'domestics'. It is still the case, though, that nine out of ten domestic abuse cases involving adults never reach the courts, because (and this is frustrating for police) victims often retract their statements, and unless a police officer actually witnesses the assault happening, they cannot proceed with charges in that instance. There are a variety of reasons victims do this, fear, love, etc. But these days, where children are involved, the authorities CAN step in. Even then, victims will sometimes break court injunctions against the man who brutally beat them, endangering themselves and their children. Such is the power some abusers have.

I know we were talking about sexual abuse, but domestic violence in the home is also a terrible thing, and it is more open to interpretation. As Mrs Major says, what one considers abuse, another may not. I, personally, think the idea of whacking kids with a slipper is abusive, even if it is a parent who does it. Others see that as necessary discipline, usually backed up with, 'well, it never did ME any harm'.

Which, to be honest, is leading us back down the path of, 'what I do with my kids is my business'. People don't like the state telling them what is and isn't appropriate when disciplining a child, while all but the most callous would consider any kind of sexual abuse disgusting.

But there has been a backlash against child protection services. Mistakes are made, and children are sometimes needlessly torn from the family home, which has led to some backlash about the authority's involvement in family life.

But I think it might be worth the mistakes to provide our children with that knowledge that there is someone they can talk to. A number you can call where you will be heard and believed. Isn't it better a child is taken in error than left to suffer appalling abuse, or, even worse, death? There have been a couple of high-profile cases where children on the 'at risk' register in my country have been failed by the system to the extent that they've died because social services hesitated.

There has to be a balance, though. We can't have teachers so hamstrung by rules they cannot comfort a crying child, or apply suncream to stop burning. Some common sense has to be applied.





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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 6, 2017 12:44 PM
I've just caught up a bit more with posts on this thread (I've been busy writing a panto - don't ask). I wholeheartedly agree, Craig, that, whilst I, too have worked with some amazing teachers, and things have certainly changed, once upon a time the kind of scenes you describe weren't so uncommon, and what's worse was that they weren't necessarily considered wrong in society. I don't know about you, but many children never told their parents for fear of getting the same at home for 'misbehaving' enough to incur the wrath of teachers. I wasn't abused like Craig was, but I do remember being punished for making too much noise (I was about 8) with a slap from the teacher that left a hand print on my leg, and not saying about it at home because I did wrong.

The awful thing is, I was in a discussion once with a couple of chaps from Guernsey who said they were always getting beatings from teachers at school, but saw nothing wrong with it. I pointed out to them that they had both left at 14 with no qualifications, so obviously it didn't exactly make them better students. Another sign that perceptions of what is abusive have changed. Most young folk today would be horrified at that sort of treatment.



mrsmajor
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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 6, 2017 01:10 PM << Modifed December 6 at 1:43PM >>


There are protections for children today, and yes many are taken away from their homes, and put into the foster care system...but that system is only as good as those that deal with these children...and sadly there are those that take these children only for the money paid for doing so.

My daughter works for the department of probation...( over 25 years) she's been a supervising probation officers for years...from what she relays to me, even that system is failing the children...there's no real back-up for what happens after these young people end their probation period.

Some commit the same kind of problems, over and over again...Punishment is not the only answer...for example, last year my daughter and one other probation officer took three girls, to see the Christmas program at Radio City Hall, in New York city...the ballet dancer are beautifully dressed, and those three young girls, where fascinated, some saying they could never do that, never be able to look so pretty...there is something to be said for a child that has been beaten down by a system that's basically concerned with their mistakes...and not trying to encourage them to want more.

Because of that my daughter and some of her associates are planning to start a program to help these young people, introduce them to things that they never thought they could be involved in...while helping them with their studies.

Just Some Thoughts!





Sarkems
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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 6, 2017 01:30 PM
What your daughter is doing sounds wonderful, and I agree there are many problems within the system. So, it's a good thing that good people like your daughter exist.

Mikey, I take your point about Mr Moore's supporters, but it may be that some are not supporting his actions, but simply believe he hasn't done those things. Which is different to condoning a paedophile. They may be completely refusing to accept empirical evidence of his actions, which is wrong, but that isn't the same as saying that what he has done doesn't matter. Some folk just don't want to believe a trusted individual could have done those things.

Spiritual Echo
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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 6, 2017 01:49 PM
Early experiences, good and bad, are the bricks in our foundation and really impact who we become and how we perceive life. I recall the rules about police involvement very well. They came to our home several times, but charges were not laid because the woman had to be the one to verify the abuse and bring about charges. Inevitably with police having a calming effect, they'd swear they fell down the stairs. That too has changed in Canada as it has in the UK.

But I remember VERY WELL a night when my mother sent the police away, her face bleeding and covered in bruises. I was horrified that anyone could get away with not being punished. The reality was, had my mother pressed charges, she would have punished her entire family. She had no job and no means of support. No social safety net, shelters or support groups. If my father went off to jail we wouldn't eat.

That lesson was the seed of feminism in my life, quickly sprouting into a conviction that I would never be in a position that I needed a man to support me. The abuse I experienced and witnessed may have evolved into the driving force to succeed in business so that no one could ever buy or own me. Not to say--it never hurt me because of the end result--but that's what others would say--not me.

As long as we understand that abuse of any kind is all about power over another person, the kind of assault can be measured by the circumstances. A couple of days ago in Canada, an important woman in parliament complained about two fellow parliamentarian, when asked to pose in a picture with them. One made an ignorant comment about this not being the sort of menage a trois he imagined. He was called out, and the woman stood in The House and said she was never so humiliated.

My reaction was pfft--the guy's an asshole, and damn well should have been called out, but making it an item in parliament--ridiculous.

There's a huge difference between sexual harassment and sexual assault--even a bigger deal when it's about children. I doubt anyone is confused about the significance of every level.

We've come a long way since my childhood, and while we have many resources available today for domestic abuse, sexual abuse in the workplace has not been discussed, and I think this entire watershed of allegations is overdue and will create positive change.


kiwisteveh


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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 7, 2017 01:25 AM
Craig, I'm confused. I was teaching in Queensland as recently as 2012 and corporal punishment was banned then (in state schools). Wikipedia confirms it is banned in all states and territories with the only exception being a few private schools in Queensland.

If you as an adult witnessed the horrific treatment you describe, did you report these crimes (assault)? If not, why not? I cannot imaging any parent condoning the drilling in the hot sun you describe, either. I don't want to call your credibility into question, but are you sure these events happened recently?

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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 7, 2017 01:58 AM
Absolutely not, Steve. I tried to make quite clear that I believe teachers today, on the whole are wonderful people. The incidents I relate are all from my own school days, which were a very long time ago.

My point was, even back then, a lot of these things were done in secret. However, as Emma has pointed out, some of them certainly weren't. It's a bit difficult to "drill" something like 1100 students in secret, or to begin laying into a student in the middle of a quadrangle without anyone noticing.

There are bad apples in every bunch, and although I think by and large teachers don't do those sorts of things today, because society wouldn't tolerate them, human nature being what it is suggests there are some who might by physically, emotionally or sexually abusing children, and making sure to cover their tracks. My only point was whether it's church , school, sporting clubs, or any type of organisation, such allegations need to be taken extremely seriously. There's a case which has been prominent in the media here for a week or so of a very well-known TV presenter who is alleged to have committed multiple cases of sexual harrasment over a long period of time, and yet nothing has ever surfaced until now.

In any case, the rather deplorable antics of one particular person are what was being discussed here, so I've probably taken things off on a bit of a tangent - sorry.



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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 7, 2017 01:58 AM
He didn't say they happened recently, Steve, he was recalling the incident from his own childhood.


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RE: We Always Said Merry Christmas
Reply on December 7, 2017 03:56 AM << Modifed December 7 at 3:59AM >>
There was a lot of abuse went on back in the day, and now the pendulum has swung too far the other way, especially for teachers.

I am sitting here puzzled at how the Democrats think forcing senator Franken to resign will cause the corrupt Republicans to do likewise. Well I have news for you folks that is not going to happen. Besides it is totally wrong to create a new policy and then litigate punishment based on past actions. Judge Roy Moore is violating his so-called religious code of conduct, right now. Every single day and minute he lets people believe he did not molest those girls he is bearing false witness and re-victimizing the women. Franken admitted to his actions and apologized and he is going to be penalized for it? Geezuz murphy what the hell is this world coming to? These are two totally different things.

Is punishing truth tellers and rewarding liars what our morality has become under Trump?



   
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