Reply on October 1, 2017 04:57 PM << Modifed October 1 at 5:05PM >>
[There's something that has to be made clear here,]
Thank you, teacher, for setting us straight.
[I really don't mind anyone that doesn't believe in a living God, that would rather consider religion a farce]
It sure seems that you do.
[its up to each of us to find our own way...]
Then why do you spend so much time denying others the right to speak their mind?
[but that doesn't mean one such person must continually try and show how those of us that live differently are living a fantasy life...That's what bothers me...and that's what comes to my mind when I read some of these comments...We could discuss this subject over and over again, and the same type of comments will be made, one of you will try and convince us we're ignorant, or living under some kind of book of rules, that really mean nothing...]
Why should it bother you what I think?
[things that people already know, that the decency of human beings doesn't come from reading some book...]
It certainly doesn't - so why must you expend so much time and energy telling us how you devote your time to reading some book?
[I'm insulted by that, one can offer their opinion without making fun of another...or assuming they must be some kind of idiot...]
An idiot would be someone who cannot appreciate the difference between criticising an idea, and a personal attack upon the one who holds it. Smart people can (and do) hold stupid beliefs on all sorts of subjects - not just religion. So how about you either put a cork in it, or quote the exact post where either Emma or myself have made fun of or called you or anyone else here an idiot?
[education is one thing, I can match any of you with degrees and years of study, teaching and all of that,]
So you keep telling us, ad nauseam. Just a question: to the best of my knowledge, Emma has never raised the issue of what level of education she may or may not have attained. To my certain knowledge, I haven't. Nor have I ever questioned anyone here about what their level of schooling might be. So why do you feel a constant need to bring it up?
[but Faith is something else]
It certainly is. It's an excuse to think that only your opinion is valid, and everyone else can go to hell.
[its not taught in a classroom]
Nor should it be.
[its not a matter of even reading and digesting what one reads in the Bible...]
No, because there are thousands of "faiths" - most of which give no credence to the Bible - a fact lost on some.
[it a matter of acceptance...and its fine if some of you would like to offer the psychological writings of some one that is held in high regard in the world of what might be called realism...but those writings do not apply to me...]
I would never accuse you of being attached to reality.
[While I don't condemn these people]
Yes you do.
[they just don't speak for people that hold dear their Faith in a God they cannot see..why can't people just accept that, it doesn't cost anything...its not trying to force you to believe other than what you do...]
I accept that. So what does this mean? That I'm forbidden from quoting these people, in the same way you endlessly quote from a source I don't believe or accept?
[This is a conversation that should not turn into personal attacks, and that's what's happening here..]
Finally, something we can agree on. But what we disagree on is where these personal attacks are coming from. And I think it's about time you stopped.
[Just Some Thoughts!]
Short Works Rating
Reply on October 1, 2017 07:42 PM
I couldn't care less what you think of me, I thought we already made it clear, I don't like you and you don't like me...that's fine with me..
Reply on October 1, 2017 07:50 PM << Modifed October 1 at 8:08PM >>
Crystal clear. I'm just tired of the whining - and the personal attacks.
Short Works Rating
Reply on October 3, 2017 12:14 AM
I don't believe there is any higher ideal to reach than what you wrote here, Craig:
"I don't need 10 archaic rules written on a clay tablet to know whether an action I'm contemplating is good or evil. All I need to do is ask "will it hurt someone or something?" Will it hurt someone or something.
If all of us could attain this one simple and yet very difficult ideal this old world would be Utopia.
I've very much enjoy yours and Emma's contributions. When you mistake a post's intent you always apologize if the misunderstanding is yours. You are patient, kind and articulate even though the gesture is not always returned. Genuine apology is another necessary skill not easily learned.
I know quite a few people around here who know lots more than I do and I welcome the education. We are still learning the art of expressing differences in opinion without personal attack, because you are so right, questioning an idea is not an attack on the person making it.
Reply on October 3, 2017 12:58 AM << Modifed October 3 at 1:40AM >>
Firstly, thanks Gloria, for the kind words of support.
I have to admit, I struggle to understand the desire on the part of some people to shut down freedom of speech with relation to one particular topic - and that topic only.
Although I still read the posts on the "politics" thread every day, I don't comment much. Concerning myself with the absurdities of the new(ish) US government is something I just find really depressing. The constant poor choices of a great many of its citizens in supporting stupid laws, as evidenced by the horrific events in Las Vegas, is something I'm just finding it easier to refrain from even thinking about. Besides, the political scene here in Australia at the moment is bordering on being equally as absurd, so that keeps me occupied to some extent.
Anyway, my point in bringing the politics thread up is that it seems people are entitled to hold opposite views on the subject, and although there might be heated disagreement about who is right and wrong, it is taken for granted everyone is allowed their say.
Not so with respect to religion. Why is it for so many a "sacred cow", where any dissention is to be stifled, when there is probably no other subject of which the same could be said?
I suppose the answer lies in some belief that by criticising religious ideas, the unbeliever is offending a supreme being (with whom the believer has a "special" relationship that the non-believer doesn't). One would think a supreme being would be big enough and mean enough (there's certainly plenty of "evidence" of that) to look after themselves. Of course, unbelievers are at a disadvantage immediately, because they don't have a special friend whom they can claim is being offended.
I guess it's either that, or it just boils down to one person's opinion is worth more (and more worthy of sharing) than another's.
Reply on October 3, 2017 03:33 AM
Thank you, Gloria. That's nice to hear. When you're constantly being told you're making personal attacks, it's difficult to remember that, actually, you haven't.
I haven't called any individual a fool. Yet, on another recent thread, here, Craig and I were referred to as 'not right in the head'. But that's not a personal attack, apparently.
A couple of times, by different people, the suggestion has been made that I consider myself an intellectual superior because of my non-belief. I've never said that, ever, and certainly don't think it. But I do wonder why it's a recurring theme, this idea that questioning beliefs is somehow questioning intelligence.
I make the point frequently, that these are my thoughts. 'For me, this doesn't make sense', etc. Doesn't mean I'm saying 'for you it shouldn't, either'.
And, far from mocking the bible as a fantasy, I have spoken of it as an important social historical document. Just created by humans, not a god, that is all.
But it strikes me that I'll be in the wrong, disrespectful, mean, whatever else people want to accuse me of, until I hold my hands up and say, 'yes, it's all true, every word of it'.
In the meantime, I'll just have to put up with being told I don't understand (talk about intellectual superiority), I'm not right in the head, I'm morally bankrupt, my life is devoid of love and joy and all the rest of it.
It doesn't really matter, 'cause none of that is true'. I just don't like injustice, and resent being chastised for something I a) don't really think I've done and b) don't see other people getting hauled over the coals for, simply because they share the same beliefs. One rule for one ...
Reply on October 3, 2017 03:50 AM
I wanted to say before, Emma, I thought the last response to you was disgraceful. You went beyond civil and conciliatory, and were attacked for it.
The only reason I didn't say anything is I am wary of getting into a "mob mentality", where people automatically spring to someone else's defense because they are part of the same "crowd". I think Mikey in particular is a good example to all of us in this regard. He says what he thinks, wherever the cards may fall.
Anyway, after further consideration, I decided that letting you know that I consider it shabby treatment you received is more important than "appearing" to be doing the right thing.
Short Works Rating
Reply on October 3, 2017 04:03 AM << Modifed October 3 at 4:07AM >>
Hey Australian politics are of interest to many of us I am sure. So post away in the political forum.
I think people who believe the bible word for word must accept it to be truth in its entirety or they feel they would break an oath as that found in
Revelations Epilogue: Invitation and Warning
12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.... "
I suppose if I believed that I'd feel the same way. Clearly you are someone who knows a great deal about the bible and religion from your wealth of personal experience. I can see why religion has no place in government because it's wildly fractured hypocrisy is open to all kinds of abuse by unscrupulous men who use God to seek power and wealth for themselves while violating every religious principle themselves. And yes, there would be untold misery and bloodshed.
Your ideal to do no harm is a superior guideline for behaviour and love for mankind and the planet and would make this world a much better place to live for everyone. In my opinion if there was a God you'd be getting many nods of appreciation because you didn't bury your talents.
That said, there is absolutely not one excuse or reason for the personal insults from the good Christians.
And you're right. I don't operate in any group, do you Craig, or Emma? It makes me wonder sometimes what goes on behind the scenes here. lol.
Reply on October 3, 2017 04:42 AM
From a very young age I've always been team captain, Gloria... of a team of one. Probably something to do with being an only child lol
In case my comment gets misconstrued - I wasn't suggesting anyone here indulges in that sort of behaviour - I just think it's something we need to keep in the backs of our minds. Mob mentality certainly seems to be all the rage on the political front in many countries at the moment. It's like everyone has to pick a side and then support the line taken by that crowd - with no concept of individual thought, or treating each issue on its merits.
I guess it's possible it's always been that way, and for some reason I'm just more aware of it lately, but I suspect the tribal culture really is on the increase.
Reply on October 3, 2017 04:56 AM << Modifed October 3 at 4:57AM >>
I hope I'm not considered a GOOD Christian. HAHAHA!
I agree. There's no excuse for attacking anyone for stating their beliefs or chastising anyone for questioning them. THAT is what we are doing here-- discussing beliefs, dissecting, questioning, challenging, and debating in order to more fully understand them, yes?
It's already been demonstrated that there is plenty of common ground amongst ALL of us, or maybe I should say, MOST of us.
Do no harm to anyone or anything. Yes, I think we can all agree on that as foundation for a worthy life.
There's still room for discussion though, even with that as a goal. For one thing, it isn't possible to live that life. Even if I set aside the fact we aren't perfect, harm will befall inadvertently no matter what we TRY to do.
Will it not?
This is something I think about now quite a bit. When I was young I had a lot of talent as a musician. I wasn't the best at anything. But I was marketable as a performer. BUT, I've always had the "do no harm" mindset.
Honestly, having that mindset did HARM me. My unwillingness to push people out of my way or take the mic as it were even though I was the better able to do so, hurt me plain and simple. At least it curtailed my success and dashed any dreams I may have had.
Perhaps I'm deluded, but being a really nice person and going out of my way to never harm anyone has cost me a great deal of happiness I believe.
Well, I'll forego the details and leave that as a point to consider.
You have two love interests. The feeling is mutual. You have to decide. ONE of them gets hurt.
She loves you, you don't love her ... hurt. She finds someone else, hurt.
He is costing you money because he can't do his job effectively. He's fired. Hurt.
Believer/Non Believer-- same formula, yes?
EDIT It is late ... this could all be insane hogwash. If so, ignore.
But I'm for no attacks and great discussions.
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