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Sarkems
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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 23, 2017 03:28 AM
I too, agree with damommy about adult women. I was just giving a possible answer to Dis's query about why some people are coming forward later.





DIS-illusioned

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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 23, 2017 03:43 AM
"I would consider it sexual abuse only if you touched me...then no apology would excuse the fact that you indeed put your hands on me."

Geez, mrsmajor, that's kinda harsh, in my humble opinion.

So, if in a 'proper' context--taking a walk, at the movies, out for dinner, etc.--I happened to reach out and touch your arm/face/hands/body, but desisted and apologized after you responded with a firm 'No', you'd still consider it sexual harassment?

Do I (really) have to ask your permission (every time) before I touch you?

And if unfortunately you had been truly molested in the past, would (and should) my slight, and only, touch be equated with that past hurtful incident?

mrsmajor
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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 23, 2017 09:56 AM


Dis,

Are you trying to be funny if your are its not working...you know darn well what I meant..we're talking about SEXUAL ABUSE aren't we...and I meant every word I said.

Sorry if that sounds harsh to you...but I've had a lot more to deal with in my lifetime, than someone using unsolicited language...asking me out, threatening me, I've learned how to fight back...but put your hands on me, then there's going to be trouble...

Yet my husband was the warmest and most loving man I ever knew...his hands were welcomed where ever and whenever he cared to use them.

That's the different, Dis, wanting and accepting....and not wanting...if I were to meet you and knew you were the same Dis, from Fanstory, I'd be happy to shake your hand...I think that would be appropriate...don't you...

Just Some Thoughts!


DIS-illusioned

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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 23, 2017 11:09 AM
Shake my hand?? Why, dearest madammajor, how utterly debaucherous of you to take full advantage of naive ol' moi in such a lecherous manner.
Yes, that was a joke--and darn funny too. Teeheehee!

Ah, but therein begs that cryptic question again: what is SEXUAL ABUSE, or, as you call it, mrsmajor, 'put your hands on me'?

Excuse the appeared absurdity of this query, but these scenarios do occur: which of these is (more of) sexual abuse: 'raping' a woman that wants to be/enjoys being raped, who does not protest or report 'the crime', OR repeatedly touching a woman's shoulder after a clear, firm 'No, don't touch me' from her on the first touch?

mrsmajor
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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 23, 2017 12:43 PM << Modifed December 24 at 8:47AM >>
Dis,

Well here's what I consider to be SEXUAL ABUSE...I think these actions to be the height of abuse, and should be reported immediately.

Rape or the forcing of intercourse against a person's will...

The unnecessary touching, rubbing, of a woman's breast or behind for sexual satisfaction...again against the will of either party.

What one woman may think is some kind of abuse, may not be what I think it is...

For instance, if there was a meeting, and I did something beneficial for the company, if my boss gave me a high-five..I wouldn't call that abuse...laugh if you want, but at this moment we really don't know what some of these woman call sexual abuse.

Touching my shoulder as we enter an elevator, telling a dirty joke in my presence, even calling me a name, and others, may not be something that I would find pleasing...but how the heck is that abuse...(especially if you make it know it wasn't proper)...Damn, we can meet up with worse than that as we go through any day...

I've seen in the advertising office I worked for, some woman didn't turn away from some of the actions others might consider abuse, if they thought it would get them where they wanted to be...I could tell stories that would make you blush...

No matter what the consequences I just don't think I would, or could allow it to continue without doing something about it...and I know that for absolute sure... and for 10 years is out of the question...I just couldn't keep it too myself...I believe one would get more respect if a negative response to such behavior was shown...and if it didn't stop then report it...even go further..

But we can't just place every man's actions in the same box...especially if they don't get the chance to defend themselves.

Now I'm not talking about people that admit to unwanted behavior, we all agree that shouldn't happen nor be accepted.

I have too much respect for myself, to allow any man to disrespect me...maybe that's just me, maybe I've never had the fear of losing a job, or that corner office that I can say that.

I believe its more what I have had done to me that effected my life, and my family...that has made me a strong woman, and it had nothing to do with Sexual abuse, Sexual Harassment or anything like that.. I made it through then, and I would do it again..
You're darn right put your hands on me (in a sexual way)...and the results just wouldn't be nice...

So I stand by my comments, they pertain to me, and I have a lifetime of experience that allows me to speak to what I have seen...both in the school system and otherwise.

Just Some Thoughts!






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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 24, 2017 03:14 AM << Modifed December 24 at 3:27AM >>
And because the terms of reference for different "types" and severity of sexual misbehaviour haven't been defined is the reason I raised this subject to begin with. But for the sake of discussion the legal definition of sexual harassment is unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favours, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature that tends to create a hostile or offensive work environment. A pattern of behaviour must be established and yes it can include unwanted physical touching that in normal circumstances wouldn't be considered problematic such as a hand on the shoulder, etc. etc.

The overall concern being an abuse of power in that a person in a senior position has the authority to terminate a subordinate's employment if "certain favours" are not granted.

A few weeks ago a female Democrat was forced to withdraw her nomination for a bid for Congress after a 2005 sexual harassment lawsuit was reported to the local newspaper. The woman fired a male subordinate and subsequently he pressed sexual harassment charges against the company she worked for. That's 12 years ago. Even though the charges against her were not settled, but were in fact dismissed in 2006, because the man's claims were false, the Democratic Party forced her to withdraw from the race to abide by their new Zero Tolerance policy.

That is the way it is and it works that way for whatever sex the person in the senior position might be.










Sarkems
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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 24, 2017 05:43 AM
So, even though the charges were dropped, the woman in your example, there, Gloria, still paid a price. This is the trouble. Mud sticks.

And the problem with investigating historic cases will always be evidence. How do you prove, sometimes forty years after the fact, what really went on? If more than one person comes forward, is that automatically going to be seen as, 'must be guilty'? There was a case over here in which a couple of girls claimed they were groped in a nightclub by a Radio one DJ some thirty years ago. He said he just put his arms about their shoulders, and they were more than happy for him to do that at the time. They said they were only 15. HE said, well, it was an over-18s club they were in, so he'd have assumed they were older, naturally, and it was STILL only an arm over the shoulder. The case was dropped, but it's still a hell of a thing to have to go through, and it doesn't matter if false accusers get some punishment, the damage has already been done, because apparently it's acceptable to splash these accusations, even when proven false, all over the damn media.






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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 24, 2017 09:11 AM << Modifed December 24 at 9:57AM >>
The legality of sexual abuse, may be a fact, but in order to come to that conclusion we would have to automatically believe the person complaining...and right now we don't know if a woman would consider a tap on the should abuse or not...sounds silly doesn't it, but from what I'm hearing, some of what has been said, (at least what I have read or heard) doesn't at all fit into the category of sexual abuse...but then I'm not a legal mind, simply an adult that has been around, and seen a lot.

I still feel its not at all fair to take the word of every woman that chooses to come out with these complaints Now...and whether we all feel that way, is a matter of personal opinion.

These accusations effect more than the individual accused...and just as some of these women do not want their names to be known, yet complaint are accepted as truth, I say what about the families of those that are actually innocent...and the one way to achieve that goal, is a face to face meeting, in an atmosphere of neutrality...even a murderer is given that opportunity.

This is my personal opinion...We will never really know what happened in some of these situations...and until abuse is proven I will keep my mind open...

Men do have rights too...some are dogs, and are guilty of ugly behavior, I just don't believe ALL of them have committed such a crime.

Just Some Thoughts!




Sarkems
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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 24, 2017 11:28 AM
I agree, Mrs Major.

mrsmajor
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RE: Suicide Amid Molestation Inquiry
Reply on December 24, 2017 12:00 PM << Modifed December 24 at 12:01PM >>




Thanks, Sarkems...

   
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