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Sarkems
I like bacon
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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 01:13 PM
Huh?

mrsmajor
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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 02:06 PM


I just have to say this...its so very very sad that some even try to excuse the past, ignore, or deny it ever happened...Sarkems is exactly correct, showing the swastika is an actual crime in Germany...this generation of people there are ashamed of the past, they know the horror of it, just as Americans should be ashamed of ours...but there's a reason people will not change, and that's because they only see through the eyes of an ignorant person...one that picks only the words they choose to agree with, and not ALL of what history has to say...it takes courage to be honest with self and those we are raising(our children)...but that kind of courage is hard to garner, not everyone can...they'd rather hang on to what makes them feel good...

And when that doesn't work some go on ramblings with a lot of sheer nonsense ...yep, I said it and I believe just that.

Just Some Thoughts!




reconciled

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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 02:53 PM
huh...?


reconciled

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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 04:00 PM
I do not try to excuse our past.
just distinguish it from our present.

Christians did not demand the Colosseum be removed from view.
the Jews not Auschwitz.
Americans not Mosques after 911....the statues should remind us of how far we've come not that we havent moved....and are still separated, stepchildren to the same mother.
what exactly is offensive...? that Lee owned slaves....many did at the time.
where do we reek havoc from there...which old bones do we dig up next to examine worthy to acknowledge ours or not...? I am not opposed to idea of museum though I'm sure we already do. My fear is this sets precedent and will only lead to more finger pointed offensive. the decision has been made...was before the "offended" acted like the savage way of life they say they abhor. the courts have already ruled there removal. so...the "offended" won...before they made their point with drawn blood.


Donya Quijote

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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 04:08 PM
Mrs. Majors

Lee was a man of his time. One thing about slavery few people know is that there were Free Blacks who also bought, sold, and owned slaves. Some treated their slaves well and others did not, but that is neither here nor there. I am sure that you know this from your African American studies. When it comes to slavery no man, no race is innocent.

You are right no one can erase the past but we most certainly can learn from it, hopefully to never commit the same vile deeds again. No apology and no amount of financial compensation to the present can change what has gone before. In my heart I know and believe that keeping another man as a slave is wrong. I also think it is wrong to lump people together and declare them to be thus and such because of the acts of a few. I have followed the stories in the news regarding the violence in Chicago and in other places. And I have read many of the vile things people (mostly white) who make comments say about the people both victims and others involved in these tragic happenings. Too often only one aspect of a much larger issue is held up for scrutiny and ridicule. Once again, until we can see each other as a brother and not only as other will we ever be able to bridge this gap that exists between us.

Those statues could serve a higher purpose, that is dialogue and improving our understanding of those events and a war that has done more to shape this nation than any other event in our history. But dialogue is not something we really want. Mostly for the last 150 years we have yelled and screamed and blamed each other. Is it any wonder why we have not moved past this? A museum would be a great place to store these relics. Once again, Lee himself did not want that war memorialized in such a way. Most of these statues were raised long after the events and deaths of the people themselves.

Sometimes I think experience is the best teacher. When I toured the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC the first time I found two displays most haunting, the exhibit with the train car and the shoe room. At the train car, the museum goer had the choice of going through it or around it. I chose to go through. A sign there tells you how many people were shoved into that car. It was horrifying. I felt as if the ghosts of the past were pressing in on me. I found it difficult to breathe. I was relieved when I exited it. In the shoe room, that huge number of 6 million became a number I could see and understand. For most that number is too big to contemplate, but those shoes on the floor give it reality. It brought me to my knees.

Mrs. Majors I hope that some day I can find my way to your part of NY and that we can sit down together, chat, and break bread. I would love to hear the story of your life.

mrsmajor
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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 04:09 PM


What some don't seem to see, is the past can't be distinguished from the present, if people cannot first admit that the past did exist...its an excuse to ignore what one doesn't want to deal with...there are people living in particular circumstances because of prejudices that still remain...because of the past!!!

Its easy for some to live only in the present, but for some of us, the past will always be with us...its history plain and simple!

Just Some Thoughts!


Donya Quijote

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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 04:16 PM
Reconciled:

You forget on thing about Lee and all the others. They were traitors to their nation. It wasn't until 1975 that his citizenship was restored. There are many stories as to why it took so long, and no one can say for sure whether or not he would have been granted full citizenship again so soon after the war.


reconciled

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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 04:29 PM
ah but were they...?

if we took slavery out of the picture.
then the civil war would have been between the States independence and government rule. look at US now...taxed to death but for need to keep us breathing. You I'm sure are more informed as I've said I just recently took an interest. to me it was a big to do purposed...that was unnecessary and has caused more harm than good.


Donya Quijote

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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 05:45 PM
Recon:

Without slavery those states had little to stand on. They sound like a bunch of lazy people who wanted someone else to do the work for them. Remember most white Southerners were not slave owners. That was a privilege reserved for the few and the wealthy. Sounds a lot like today, doesn't it? The world was changing back then and slavery was on its way out. It is unlikely that the Confederacy would have been able maintain its independence long had it been victorious. And the aid of other nations would not have helped either, as Great Britain and France were looking at reclamation of lost territories. The USA and Brazil were the last to abolish slavery. States rights is a poor excuse as South Carolina was already on shaky ground with that argument. Read its declaration of succession. If a state wants to leave the union the constitution allows for it. California and I think Texas often consider the possibility. But acts of aggression do not justify the cause in the end. In the end the war was about power.


Sarkems
I like bacon
because it tastes good.

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RE: Tear down those pyramids.
Reply on August 26, 2017 06:04 PM
.no, the Jews didn't tear down Auschwitz - maybe because they see it as a grim memorial to the dead. But they don't tear down the statues of those who brutalised and killed their parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts. Why not? Because they aren't there. Not a single statue to hitler, or any of his commandants exists. But I know many spit at the sight of a graffitti'd swastika, and would certainly protest at anything so glorifying as a statue.

I've explained why using ancient buildings is a poor example. It's too long ago, and it isn't in idolatory of the individual, like a statue is.

That said, Michael, I think this time you've offered some sensible arguments, which you are more than capable of doing when you don't riddle-me-ree. By the way, you should note I've no idea about CNN. I can't get it here except on the net, and have never watched it.

I think the museum idea is a good one, too. Not erasing the past, but making it clear it IS considered the past. And it is important to hear about the side of the civil war that wasn't about slavery, and to remember that it represents other turning points in history too, just as WW2 wasn't just about the holocaust, terrible though it was.

Donya, though you too, make some great, salient points, I don't like the 'other people were doing it' argument. Different times, yes, but actually plenty of people weren't doing it, and plenty of people knew full well how wrong it was, and were against it. Whilst it might have been a 'culturally accepted practice', plenty did not accept it as such, and spoke out against it. So that isn't much of an excuse. People chose whether or not to have slaves, and how to treat them. If there were those who could have kept slaves but chose not to for moral reasons, others could have done the same. Owning slaves was not a hanging offence, but neither was not owning them. Still, it does prove another oft-made point of mine, that we do need laws, because apparently some people do need to be told legally that enslavement and brutality isn't really on.

That sort of argument, the 'other people did it' one always reminds me of my mother asking me if I would jump off a cliff if everyone else did it ...

But there is another argument I've not really seen yet, that I think is valid. Can those of us who don't have a history where members of our family tree were the victims of the slave trade really tell those who do what they can and cannot find offensive and inappropriate? We don't have to take the blame for the actions of our predecessors, but we do have to take responsibility for our own actions in the present. Would you tell a person of Jewish descent, whose grandparents were in the holocaust, that they should not be offended by a particular image, or piece of art that celebrates the perpetrators of that terrible moment in history?

The implication of this type of thinking is 'I am not offended by this, therefore you should not be, even though your historical connection is different'. Although, of course, the reverse is true.




   
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