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Sarkems
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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 4, 2017 02:18 PM
' Why would we think that a "war on gun violence " is , or would be any different?' - because it HAS worked elsewhere, DJ. Now, I know America would find it harder, because you have so many of them in circulation that the very real problem of criminals still being able to get them easily would be one you'd struggle to deal with.

In regards to the constitution, yes, you are quite right about the people doing these things not caring about it, but the constitution, like the law, has surely to be of maximum usefulness to the society of the time. Given the fact that we are talking about an 'amendment', here, I'd say the constitution is not written in stone, and to cling on to an aspect of it that no longer works for the society you are in simply because it's been written down for a number of years seems as daft as hanging on to the law we had here that said only the Seigneur (sort of a lord) could keep a female dog. There's a point to that, but modern veterinary surgery has meant the law was amended in 2008 to say anyone could keep a female dog provided she was spayed.

Now, when your constitution was first amended, as many have pointed out, they couldn't have foreseen the array of weaponry there would be available to Americans in 2018. Who is really talking about taking away your guns altogether? Isn't the conversation simply about amendments relating to when and where you can have a gun, for what purpose and what type?

All I'm pointing out to you is that while there may be many wars going on, like you mentioned, this is one war you may not be able to win, but you CAN reduce the impact.

The drinking culture is a big problem in the UK, right? Now, we could close down all the pubs and clubs. Not gonna happen. Not fair to all the people who enjoy a drink responsibly, right? But imagine if all those people were allowed to carry any weapon of their choosing. I've seen pub brawls, I dread to think what would happen if they were all packing. Doesn't solve the drink problem, but it does mean more people get to wake up the next morning. Hung over, maybe, a little bruised, but alive.

And I think of the people I used to know. I'm not proud of this, but should point out I never robbed in my life personally, but I know people who have. An ex boyfriend of mine in my teens was imprisoned for robbery, and he was a housebreaker. Yes, he absolutely did wrong, and should have been punished, but with his life? He didn't physically injure anyone, but if we had your gun culture, he might not have made it past 21.

He's a responsible citizen now, I gather, works with computers. All that potential to become a decent human being would have been wiped out because he made some stupid decisions as a troubled teen. Absolutely he should have been punished for what he did. But he didn't have a gun. And he didn't have a gun because nobody else did. Home owners possessing a gun doesn't make criminals stop burgling your house. It just means they'll go with a gun too.

Guns haven't reduced that sort of crime. They've simply made it more likely to end in tragedy, for either the homeowner or the burglar.

Realistically speaking, none of the problems in society you and I have talked about have been solved with guns. In fact, they've been made worse. Life has become cheaper and cheaper, the easier it has become to despatch it. So what have your rights regarding guns really given you? Security? Hardly. Now you not only have to worry about being robbed, you have to worry that the robber might be armed, and he might be a better shot than you.

Your police are armed because your criminals are armed. Your citizens are armed because your police and criminals are armed. Your criminals are armed because your police and your citizens are armed. It's a vicious circle. I don't know how you break it, but you can't carry on as you are. You can fight the causes of violence, but while it's still oh, so easy to pull that trigger, you're making it harder to get anywhere.

Meanwhile, people of influence who are making a hell of a lot of money out of the arms industry in your country are pretty influential, and are very keen to see you all remain in that vicious cycle.


Sarkems
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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 4, 2017 03:46 PM
I'd also like to add that a prolific gun culture puts an emphasis on protection and defence, rather than resolution. So, instead of doing something about the problems which cause crime, or the people who commit the crimes, the onus is put squarely onto the potential victim. 'We, as a society, aren't going to do anything about this, therefore you, as an individual, can protect yourself'.

In many ways, this arse-backwards thinking has resulted in increased violence in many countries which DO have gun laws. The advice about what to tell your daughters about what they wear, sticking to lit streets, carry a rape alarm is far more prolific than the exhortation to tell your sons not to rape women. An over-simplification, maybe, but true when you think about it.

The response to violence in a particular area seems to be more and more 'how can we protect ourselves' than 'why is this happening, and what shall we do about it'. Again, because protection is easier than trying to solve the complexities of what leads to high levels of crime.

Statistics we've not seen (where's Bananafish these days, he was always good on statistics) are any which tell us that, statistically, two comparable areas with similar levels of poverty, poor educational provision and the like, but different gun laws have different levels of crimes permitted. For instance, do fewer burglaries occur in cities with similar levels of poverty/unemployment/low education where there are more relaxed gun laws. Does the high presence of guns actually do anything to prevent crime?

If we just revisit rape for a moment, I've heard elsewhere women saying they want a gun for 'protection' against rapists. One woman wrote on a facebook thread that she actually thought rapists would turn and run if they saw she had a gun. Well, that's a false sense of security, and here is why:

Despite popular belief, the kind of rapes involving a madman leaping out from the bushes are quite rare. Most are perpetrated by someone the victim either knows well or has recently met in the kind of relaxed social occasion where even the most hardy gun toters wouldn't be wearing their gun on their hip.

However, if it IS a serial nutter who jumps out from the bushes, if you are prepared you can bet your bottom dollar they will be, and they'll be more prepared than you. They aren't going to turn and run because you've got a gun. If you have, it means you are in a state where they know it's likely you will have one, so they'll be ready, either with a gun of their own, or a plan to make sure you can't use yours. Rapists who attack strangers are seldom opportunists. They've usually planned the attack. Serial rapist known as the 'Yorkshire Ripper' had a special garment he put on with his 'rape kit' in it. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he prepared himself for maximum chance of success. He smacked his victims on the back of the head, and that was usually the first time they knew he was there. Of what use would a gun have been, and how much do you think possessing one would have put him off?

A rapist like this is going to make sure you won't get a chance to use your weapon. You have a gun? He might need to plan a bit more.

You see, in reality, when everyone knows everybody is likely to have a gun, the criminals aren't running scared, they're just better prepared. You still have to stay one jump ahead, just as you would if neither of you had a gun, or if only he or she had a gun. Remember, they've planned this attack. You haven't.

Guns don't prevent bad shit happening. That takes a bit more work. If anyone here could prove to me that possessing an arsenal which wouldn't look out of place in a war-zone makes all the criminals drop everything and promise to be better men, I'll salute relaxed gun laws, and beg to have them.

But from where I'm standing, all that's happened is the criminals are stronger, and more people die as a result of their crimes, as opposed to wishing they'd got better insurance and being really, really upset that the family heirloom's gone.

Nobody's learned anything, nothings been improved, no crime rates have been lowered. The nature of the game has just got nastier.


mrsmajor
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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 4, 2017 03:54 PM


Sarkems,

The society of this country is much to wrapped up in the use of guns, and that will never change...the constitutions says many things, I remember having to recite some of them in school...I bet there's people that have no idea about the 2nd amendment or the rest of them for that matter....sure there can be constitutional amendments that might be passed, but its too late for this country..I don't believe that will ever happen...its not the laws...its the hearts of people that can't change...there was a time, though, years ago, when people walked here and there with their guns strapped to their side, and I believe many Americans would like to see the return of such a time...there are many people that carry a gun right now, because they claim they feel safer.

I know this might sound horrible, but I don't feel sorry for an alcoholic, a drug addicted person, a criminal that has finally been caught, or anyone that decides to kill themselves, because there is always a starting point...they had a chance to keep on the straight and narrow and they made their choice...does that make me perfect, heck no, thats why I stopped buying the cakes, and cookies I love so much...I should be pounds lighter, but no one forced me to eat those things I made that choice.

The Constitution was only a frame work for this country, and since then there have been amendments but the climate for any gun control laws isn't with us, now, and as long as the NRA has the kind of influence that it does, things aren't going to be any different, although I certainly hope I'm wrong about that.

Of course people could force a change, but money is the name of the game here, and those that could perhaps force a change, (Congress), have no intention of doing so.

Who I do have sympathy for are those that are the victims of gun violence...and I say that for criminals, as well as law enforcement...and those accidentally killed by the careless gun owner.

Just Some Thoughts!






kiwisteveh


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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 4, 2017 05:10 PM
Victoria, I'm going to pick you up on your words 'that (American gun use) will never change'.

I am so sad that decent, peace-loving people can just accept such an awful thing, put it in the too-hard basket. It can change, it has to change. Otherwise your country is losing thousands of citizens every year, many of them ordinary innocent people like yourself.

And what kind of society allows that to happen?

If every concerned citizen wrote to their congressperson and expressed their outrage at the current laws, the laws would be changed...

It is bewildering to people outside the US that you continue to have tragedies like the Las Vegas shooting and do noting about it. My very real fear is that the number of fatalities now serves as a target. Stephen paddock set a new record. How long will it be before some maniac tries to prove he can go one better?

mrsmajor
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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 4, 2017 07:25 PM


Steve,

I cannot express my sadness, when I think of what is happening in just one city in this country...In Chicago...so far this year there have been 552 people shot and killed(590 were murders)...and over 2500 shot and wounded...with many of them children.

Yes, this country loses hundreds of people in gun related incidents...many perfectly innocent...

What kind of society allows that to happen?

What so many people outside of this country do not quite understand is that any changes in gun laws would have to have governmental approval, and the NRA (National Rifle Association)...is a powerful lobbying group..

What we need is a set of requirements for the possession and owning of a gun, that would be the same all over this country..at this time that is not the case...and so in a city like Chicago, Illinois though that state has strict gun law, one can cross over into Indiana, where the laws are more liberal, buy a gun, often from gun shows, and come right back over the border and do your dirty work.

I would like to believe you, Steve, I completely understand your thoughts, but I know there are groups from many states that do write, call, and even meet with federal authorities to no avail...you see it is federal laws that is needed, and the Congress,...a group of selfish individuals, concerned with their desire to keep their seats, do take money from the NRA to help in their campaigns, and so they have turned into a bunch, of useless beings afraid to go up against what the NRA wants no matter what.

Until we get a group of men/women, in Congress that can think about the country First!, and forget themselves, and their status for a moment, nothing will change.

States on an individual basis can make their laws, but as I mentioned, one can go across the border into anther states and get a gun..it is a fact that the majority of guns used in violent attacks, come from outside of Illinois...(from Indiana)

If you recall, right after the horrible Las Vegas massacre there was some conversation about gun control...but the NRA was quiet, and nothing has happened since..yes there is Talk, but no action.

It has always been my thinking that perhaps all of the publicity that these terrible violent incidents, becomes an incentive for others to do similar acts...not only terrorist related, but simply because they are evil people, criminals with no concern for anyone but themselves...and in a country of more than 230 million people there are plenty of criminals around.

I don't know much about your country, how things are run, or even the politics, but I can tell you are thinking about how people act when something just isn't right, and begin requesting from their leaders that changes is needed, well that doesn't work here.

The republican party has control of the house, senate, presidency, and the supreme court, and its going to be extremely hard for others, (democrats, Independents, and the average joe in the streets) to do much..

Yes indeed, so much of this makes me sad...just a few weeks ago, a child was killed by a stray bullet...people cried, mourned for a while...and that was it.

I most certainly can see why people outside of this country cannot understand why something isn't done..I'd like to know why it isn't too...

Just Some Thoughts!

CD Richards

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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 5, 2017 03:48 PM << Modifed November 6 at 3:21AM >>
Not again.

Mass shooting
Outrage
Request prayers
Issue denials and engage in victim blaming

Mass shooting
Outrage
Requests prayers
Issue denials and engage in victim blaming

Mass shooting

(repeat ad infinitum)

It never changes, and now matter how much most of the people want it to, it never will.

Because it needs a leader with balls to stand up to the gun lobby, and no such person seems to exist.

Prayers have never brought a single victim back. Time to change the law.

Too soon?

No, too late.


kiwisteveh


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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 6, 2017 03:14 AM
Well, I hate to say it, but of course, again. After all there has been one mass shooting in the US for every day of this year, or close to it. One should be surprised and pleased on a day when there isn't one more atrocity.

More families and a whole community torn apart. It will make the news for a couple of days and then forgotten and on to the next one.

I think we all know that definition of insanity - it is to keep doing the same old thing and expecting to get a different result.

mrsmajor
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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 6, 2017 08:05 AM << Modifed November 6 at 8:11AM >>

Steve,

Perhaps now you might begin to understand why I feel as I do...This murderer was discharged from the service dishonorably, was known for his mistreatment and physical abuse of his family....it would seem to me, such a man should not have been able to purchase the kind of weapons he used to kill innocent men woman and children...One cannot say if there were harder laws, background checks, whether this may have made a difference, or not, but to me everything possible must be done to keep these guns out of the hands of killers...

It is another sad day for this country, and for this small town of 400/500 close-knit people...

I just can't believe this country refuses to defy the NRA..and vote in universal background checks..Somehow to say he was mentally disturbed is just not enough

Just Some Thoughts!


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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 6, 2017 02:20 PM
CD,

Mass shooting
Outrage
Request prayers
Issue denials and engage in victim blaming


Who blames the victims ? Other then gun grabbing liberals. That's Rubbish, even from you.

Unless you want to say that gun right advocates point out that if there were law abiding people present that had a gun and were trained to use them in such instances , then the atrocities wouldn't have happened. Perhaps that is what you meant by "victim blaming"?


michaelcahill
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RE: Help end this brutal dictatorship
Reply on November 6, 2017 02:40 PM
I know of one gun in particular THIS gun grabbing liberal would've LOVED to get my hands on. But, hey, I wouldn't want to violate the rights of a beloved American citizen would I.

   
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