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CD Richards

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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 12:03 AM
Sweet dreams. And watch out for the tooth fairy, if you haven't been drinking fluoridated water :)


gloria ...
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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 12:47 AM
Craig you say, Shouldn't the non-interventionist advocates who are against the unnatural practice of adding a minute amount of fluoride to drinking water also be against the unnatural removal of deadly quantities of this poison from community waters in impoverished areas.

That's on point and logically sound. Unnatural has gotta go both ways, or neither. Ergo, the premise needs to be altered so interventionists can advocate from a stronger position of fact. That change in focus would greatly improve their research. If humans only maintained purely natural positions we'd not import food and would only consume edibles found or grown in our environment. We wouldn't construct our homes with anything but local building materials. And we wouldn't have the assortment of delicious things to imbibe. Have you ever tried homemade beer? That stuff is wicked. We alter our environment continuously by design for comfort, survival and profit. Much is beneficial with a few glaring exceptions such as nuclear bombs, smog, opioids, tequila and handguns.

As far as adding minute amounts of fluoride to drinking water, (with a limited perusal studies both pro and con) no measurably negative effects have occurred in 45% of Canadian communities using the mineral for almost 80 years. That said, while dental health has improved, it's difficult to isolate fluoride as the single cause because other health determinants have also improved during that time, including dentistry.

So a defensible argument is that adding fluoride to drinking water in minute amounts is effect neutral so the logical step is not to add it. Then redirect those wasted resources to isolating and eliminating the truly toxic surprise elements, added to and growing in, our water system.


CD Richards

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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 01:01 AM
Gloria,

A well presented summary, and I agree with almost all of it. I wish I could cut and paste, which would make life a hell of a lot easier - when did we lose that ability?

The only reservation I have with what you've presented is that you say "it's difficult to isolate fluoride as the single cause" of improvements in dental health. But to my knowledge, no one has suggested it is. I tried to give examples of when there are multiple causes of some desirable outcome, it makes sense to adopt all of them, not to focus on one.

Also, if there is no proof of the benefit of something (and I don't think this is the case with fluoride), that in itself is not evidence of lack of the benefit.

However, all that said, I have far more of a problem with how "facts" are presented by online fringe groups than I do with the issue of whether to add or not add fluoride to water - and this has been my main gripe all along.




gloria ...
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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 01:50 AM
The copy and paste function was disabled about a week ago. I haven't bothered to contact Tom to find out why though. lol

I agree with you having been through a few of these phases in my life including a very strict organic juicer diet for years.

There is a lot of misinformation on the Net and combine that with the current spate of disinformation it's like a nuisance ground and a person has a tough time sorting through the copious mountains of crap trying to separate fact from opinion, let alone fact from fiction.

I am somewhat mystified why the current mania surrounding fluoride has arisen. My guess is because the mineral is being extracted from industrial waste?


Sarkems
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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 02:43 AM
Craig, I presented the article as a rather more scientific approach, and the highlights you gave of what the article said are part of the reason why I presented it as not too 'woo-woo'. It's a bit more of a balanced view.

I've said, way, waay back in the early days of this mammoth thread, that I think fluoride is the least of what is found in mains tap water to worry about, and I still stand by that. And plenty of naturally occurring things in water can make us sick, hence my little story about folks visiting my island with water with a high mineral content.

I'm just looking at different perspectives. Having not experienced fluoridated water until later in my life (in the UK, only 10% of the population are drinking water with fluoride added to it), I'm simply not convinced it is necessary with good oral hygiene.

The following extract is from a paper produced by Michael A. Lennon School of Clinical Dentistry University of Sheffield, UK, Helen Whelton and Dennis O?Mullane Oral Health Services Research Centre University College, Cork, Republic of Ireland
and Jan Ekstrand Karolinska Institutet Stockholm, Sweden.


'There are substantial variations in the levels of dental decay both between and within the continents. WHO recommends the index DMFT at 12 years of age (mean number of decayed,
missing and filled teeth) are the most appropriate national indicator, and the WHO oral health database provides extensive information (19). The aetiological factors in dental caries involve the interplay on the tooth surface between certain oral bacteria and simple sugars (e.g. sucrose) derived from the diet. In the absence of those sugars in foods and drinks (an average national consumption of say less than 15 kg per person per year) dental caries will not be a public health problem. Under such circumstances, the public health concern will be to avoid the harmful effects of any excessive fluoride consumption from drinking water. However, where caries risk is high (or increasing) the effects of a decision to remove fluoride from the public drinking water are more complex. In countries such as the Scandinavian countries, where public dental awareness is very high and alternative vehicles for fluoride (e.g. tooth paste) are widely available and widely used, a decision not to replace fluoride removed from the dinking water would be of no consequence. On the other hand in some developing countries, where public dental awareness might be much lower, water fluoridation at concentrations of 0.51.0 mg/litre would remain an important public health objective. In yet other countries (e.g. the UK) the situation is mixed. In parts, such as the South East of England, dental caries is mainly under control without water fluoridation; in other regions, such as the North West of England, the prevalence of dental caries is substantially higher and water fluoridation remains an important public health objective.'

You can read the full paper here: http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/nutrientschap14.pdf'

I think this offers a pretty balanced view, encompassing most of the different points we've made outside of the whole 'toxins' aspect. The extract indicates that good oral health and hygiene removes the necessity for adding fluoride, but indicates some areas still benefit from it where this isn't the case.



CD Richards

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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 02:54 AM
Emma: I concur :)


Sarkems
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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 03:00 AM
I'd just like to add, since a considerable amount of this debate revolves around 'sources', that, when researching a subject, I tend to look for articles and scientific papers, rather than videos. I find it easier to read information than watch it. I realise that sometimes my sources can be a little more 'dry', which is why I don't copy entire papers here. I tend to find the videos a little sensationalist. I think there have been some very good points made, here, on all sides. The arguments against fluoride are not all 'woo woo', and I think some of the sensationalist videos obscure what may be some valid and serious points.

CD Richards

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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 03:25 AM
I will say that the quality of the nofluoride.com site seems immeasurably better than anything else I've come across in terms of trying to present creditable information for the "no" case.

But when even the "best" sites advocating a particular viewpoint reproduce articles that do nothing to promote their cause, I don't find that a very convincing argument. I'll reserve any modification of my opinion until I see something credible.


Sarkems
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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 04:14 AM
Absolutely, Craig, and it's getting harder and harder to wade through the mire.


michaelcahill
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RE: Water
Reply on October 29, 2017 07:50 AM << Modifed October 29 at 7:53AM >>
It occurs to me that one of even moderate means would be able to avoid the problem of drinking tap water in any case. One could buy a filtration device like the ones being hawked by some of the anti-fluoride concerns OR simply buy water that is not fluoridated.

I'm guessing it has the greatest benefit for the poorest of society, those without dental care and no doubt little predilection to follow any sensible dental regimen.

Most of this thread is devoted to debate about sources and their veracity as well as the intellectual capacities or lack thereof the people involved.

There are also the usual tangents and simple failure to acknowledge points already made.

This issue seems simple. Fluoride seems to provide some benefit, BUT it may not be enough to justify foisting it upon EVERYONE. In fact, it might even be harmful though it isn't clear that the specific practice of adding trace amounts to the water supply IS in and of itself.

To be clear, fluoride is a NATURALLY occurring mineral that is present in all water sources.

Yes, there are water sources that have dangerous levels. That has NOTHING to do with fluoridating water at safe levels to prevent tooth decay.

It isn't like they don't test the water or measure the amounts put into the water. NO, they don't back up giant dump trucks full of toxic waste, close their eyes and go heave-ho.

Still, there's no question if the advantages are minimal or outweighed by the risks, then there's no need to add it at all.

As I have said more than once with NO ANSWER. The American Dental Association claims fluoride is beneficial and reduces cavities by 25 percent.

Soooo ... are they wrong? Are their scientists charlatans? Are they owned puppets of ... who?

I honestly don't know. I certainly understand that the medical BUSINESS and the pharmaceutical industry are nasty profit making scoundrels. Yep, I'm in agreement there. It isn't like I couldn't be convinced. I have to deal with doctors, pharmacies and insurance companies round the clock. The are lacking to say the least and I'm sure more lacking here in the United States then they are anywhere else.

Ha, I'm off on a tangent in my own post. This is where I mock and dismiss myself....

   
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