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michaelcahill
rumours and innuendos
rumours of innuendos

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RE: Water
Reply on October 27, 2017 11:46 PM
Still, when sources are offered, they enter the mix and the credibility of the source MUST be considered. If it is highly suspect it DOES affect the veracity of the argument offered.

If one side is offering evidence based on bogus findings, then the conclusions are going to be met with suspicion. It stands to reason.

I do hear what you say, Jimi, and I believe it makes sense. Yes, I understand everything you're saying and it certainly is based on fact across the board. However, I still don't know where the notion that fluoride is harmful comes from. I see a picture painted of truckloads of steaming toxic waste being poured into waterways in the dead of night under the cover of darkness. Is THAT how the water is fluoridated?

I admit I only have the most conventional of sources such as the American Dental Association. I'm all ears if they are not a reputable source. Is the fluoride industry a multi billion dollar concern? Is the ADA their puppet?

I stand by my contention that poverty reigns in the U.S. and regimens of dental hygiene take a back seat to simple survival in a land void of health care and, honestly anymore, heart.


reconciled

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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 12:02 AM
ahha,,,-headshake-....whatever

mrsmajor
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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 01:21 AM


As I've said many times, when one wants to prove a point, there's always a place to look, and in most cases there's always a place to look for a contrary position...Recon may be right in how he feels, but i do not agree with him, and have no problem saying that.

There are thoughts, ideas, and opinions, that make sense to me...and because of this conversation, I took the time to do some research also, and that's my point...there's always a place to find what one's looking for...and I don't happen to agree that fluoride will do all the harm mentioned here, if used in the amount tested by scientist...No one is saying everyone must use that kind of toothpaste, no one is saying one has agree with anyone else, just that we all will be making choices according to what we wish...I believe that's the way it should be.

If we were children, then the case wouldn't be the same...but I don't know anyone that would deliberately give their children something that would harm them...and right now, I have three children who have used the toothpastes in question with no negative effects from an early age...of course all of us should be sure to have dental check-ups periodically, especially children...but I do think for those that are not able to have regular dentist care that toothpaste does help in trying to keep the teeth as well cared for as possible,

If we were to really investigate what we use, in all areas of our lives, it would be impossible to eliminate all of them from our living experience...cleaning fluids, disinfectants, even laundry and dish detergents would have to be eliminated

(I guess I'll have to take that back, as I don't know if people here use all of those kinds of products)...I believe sugar is far more dangerous than we realize, but then that's just me, and I wouldn't expect anyone to agree just because I say that.



Just Some Thoughts!





mrsmajor
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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 01:21 AM << Modifed October 28 at 1:24AM >>







Sarkems
I like bacon
because it tastes good.

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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 03:10 AM
I'm puzzled. I thought Americans all had perfect teeth. I remember when Obama's healthcare plan was unveiled, on our news angry Americans objecting to 'socialist' healthcare said they didn't want anything like the British NHS. One of the reasons was, 'have you seen British teeth?'

The state of our teeth has always been a bit of a joke to you guys, or so I thought. There's a Simpson's episode which shows them watching a British comedy, and all the characters have bad teeth.

Actually, we don't all have bad teeth, even though NHS dentists are rapidly becoming a thing of the past. We just don't spend stupid money on unnecessary cosmetic whitening and straightening to give us that perfect look (although that is becoming more popular). My teeth are great, hardly any filling, etc, but they don't look like a toothpaste advert, they aren't perfectly straight and gap-free.

But though I grew up without fluoridated water, I did have free dental care up to the age of 18 and we used to have the school dentist visit annually. All of which is more useful than fluoride in the water supply.

It might not be dangerous, but it isn't really all that useful, either. Fluoride in your drinking water isn't going to remove the plaque or trapped food between your teeth, you really need to brush and floss for that. You'd have to be at least swilling your mouth with water, and how many people do that?

Add to that, how many people at greater risk of tooth decay (i.e those with poor diets/dental hygiene) drink a lot of tap water? Part of the problem is that those are the folk swigging back the mountain dew and the coke, is it not?

To use your analogy, Craig, it's like giving someone treatment for lung cancer, whilst they are still smoking. Pretty pointless, really.

And I wonder if the presence of fluoride in the water is a bit like the presence of safety belts and air bags in cars for some people. Does it lull people into a false sense of security?

You see, craig, whilst I take your point, the best way to avoid a car crash IS to drive more safely, and having safety features doesn't change that fact. They may give you a statistically greater chance of survival, but they don't magically make you invulnerable, as some people seem to think by the way they drive.

And fluoridated water doesn't replace good dental care. The people at risk of cavities will still be at risk of cavities. It isn't a magic wand, you have to put a bit of effort in for it to really work. I'm sure it's a boost for children and adults who brush regularly anyway, but I really doubt it prevents those life-threatening abscesses Mikey was talking about in people who take little or no care of their teeth at all.

So, if there's any doubt about it, why put it in the water? Is it really worth it?


CD Richards

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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 04:02 AM
I understand what you're saying, Emma, and I agree with much of it. But I think we're simply approaching this from different directions.

Firstly, I have not ever heard any dental professional suggest that because people drink fluoridated water, it's fine for them not to brush or floss. If people think that, then they might be a bit thick. I'm fairly certain very few people would say they're under that impression.

Yes, I know that the same people who are likely not to take proper care of their teeth are the same ones who are more likely to guzzle a Coke than a glass of water. Although it might perhaps be true that the very poor don't have any say in the matter - and surely if it helps them, it's a good thing.

I gave some "negative" examples of why because something is the best way to achieve a goal doesn't mean it should be the only way. Here's a more "positive" one, also related to looking after our health:

If I want to be healtheir, I can:

* Lose weight
* Stop smoking
* Give the beer a miss
* Improve my diet
* Exercise more
* Get more sleep

Is there any good reason I should pick one of these, and decide none of the others matter?

I'm all about evidence. I've looked at some which has been presented here and been unimpressed. It may be that one or more of the videos that have been pasted here make a valid point somewhere along the way. But when the person posting them can't be bothered even saying a word about what they found convincing, why should I be bothered wading through all the dross, I don't feel inclined to expend much effort. The "fluoride is a deadly poison" nonsense, the dumping 44 gallon barrels of "skull and crossbones" material into the dam, and interviews such as whether people feel fluoride is a bad thing are just a waste of time.

I would like to pose a challenge. If anyone arguing against the addition of fluoride to the water can show me one study or one video, and give a brief summary of the compelling arguments it contains (along with page references or time offsets), I will carefully look at the material. And if there is good reason to believe they may have a point, I'll post on here that I concur. But I don't want videos of crop circles or Easter Island statues, or anything that discusses "auras".


kiwisteveh


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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 04:05 AM
Jimi, when you say "I know what I know", it really sounds like you are proclaiming, "I'm right on this and anyone who thinks differently is wrong." Which is pretty funny when most reputable experts think YOU are wrong.

Emma, "Is it worth it?" Well, yes, again, most experts think it is.

CD (I think) - good point, that the people for whom fluoridated water will make the most difference are the ones who don;t have a Jimi in their lives making sure they eat healthy food and stay away from sugary foods and drinks.

Here's Pam Ayres

Oh, I wish I?d looked after me teeth,
And spotted the dangers beneath
All the toffees I chewed,
And the sweet sticky food.
Oh, I wish I?d looked after me teeth.

I wish I?d been that much more willin?
When I had more tooth there than fillin?
To give up gobstoppers,
From respect to me choppers,
And to buy something else with me shillin?.

When I think of the lollies I licked
And the liquorice allsorts I picked,
Sherbet dabs, big and little,
All that hard peanut brittle,
My conscience gets horribly pricked.

My mother, she told me no end,
?If you got a tooth, you got a friend.?
I was young then, and careless,
My toothbrush was hairless,
I never had much time to spend.

Oh I showed them the toothpaste all right,
I flashed it about late at night,
But up-and-down brushin?
And pokin? and fussin?
Didn?t seem worth the time ? I could bite!

If I?d known I was paving the way
To cavities, caps and decay,
The murder of fillin?s,
Injections and drillin?s,
I?d have thrown all me sherbet away.

So I lie in the old dentist?s chair,
And I gaze up his nose in despair,
And his drill it do whine
In these molars of mine.
?Two amalgam,? he?ll say, ?for in there.?

How I laughed at my mother?s false teeth,
As they foamed in the waters beneath.
But now comes the reckonin?
It?s me they are beckonin?
Oh, I wish I?d looked after me teeth.

Even funnier to hear her reading it on Youtube!


jlsavell

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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 10:04 AM
No kiwi,
I know what I know isn?t a statement to say you are wrong. It was simply a statement meaning I know enough about a said subject to convince me of my stand, not to try to convince you nor anyone else. I know what I know means I have enough sufficient evidence to make my choice. It is not arrogantly declaring you are wrong, or anyone else.

You don?t have to be the sharpest tool in the shed to investigate any subject which concerns you. But you must do your due deligence in making sure you are not being sold a bill of bullshit. I feel confident in that I have made the right decision regarding fluoride. I feel that what I know has given me enough information to make the right decision for me. Not for you, not for anyone, but for me and my loved ones.

What is the friggin purpose of put industrial waste in your water? What benefits of ingesting it? Tell me? Tell me? Building bone or lending to the strength of your teeth? Bull crap. Why not a diet dense in exceptional minerals and nutrients as your body was designed to convert and assist in building.

Have you personally witnessed how they put flouride in the community water supply? It, like most other chemical or goods, are transported by trucks. After it arrives I am sure they have many ways of distributing or applying it, maybe through a pump at the station. One idea is to go to your water supply/ exchange station where they purify and ask them how they do it. They should be willing to give you that information. It?s harmless right. No secret.



As for no one wanting to harm their children. Absolutely right.! None of us want to harm our children. We want the best for them. But when we are being sold a bil of goods that this is good for them, we believe and are convinced we are.The food industry targets children with their packaging. The food industry puts things in our food which are not nutrition and not harmless, but it is not advertised as such. We buy into it.

Many many things in the pharmaceutical industry are sold to us or prescribed to us as a rescue. Yes, by law on the labels or mandatory brochures are warnings, but these warnings are overshadowed by fast talk and small writing and while boldly selling its ?supposed ?
benefits. Watch the drug commercial here in the U.S.

So , no, Steve, I know what I know enough to make my choice. And I make sure that what I know isn?t just erroneous propaganda. My discernment not yours. Resulting in my choice. My personal choice.

Have a great day. Hope that clears it up.


Sarkems
I like bacon
because it tastes good.

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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 12:59 PM
Even better hearing her live, Steve. She's a really nice lady, too.

Have a look at this article, Craig:
http://nofluoride.com/Unicef_fluor.cfm

You may find it less 'woo woo' than the videos shown here, but it does highlight some areas of concern regarding fluoride levels. One of thee problems with putting it in the water, as noted in this article, is that different people react to different amounts in different ways. So can we really say, 'THIS amount of fluoride is safe for everyone?'

The article also addresses the issue of naturally occurring fluorides in some of our foods. Simply saying, 'oh, well, as long as it's below 1mg per litre' is one thing, but one would also need to assess every individual to see how much fluoride they are already taking in. Perhaps this is already factored in, but maybe not.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think fluoride is some evil poison affecting our brains, but unless it really IS vital for our health and wellbeing, I'd say it's better to only add to our water what we HAVE to for safety, not what we want to so we can keep guzzling our fizzy drinks.

And, in this day and age, to people REALLY need someone like Jimi to say, 'hey, you know what? Maybe if you drank less coke and brushed your teeth a bit more often, your mouth would be healthier?' Maybe if you never went to school, watched TV, talked to anyone else, perhaps. But the problem of tooth decay, which started all this off wasn't just with a small percentage of ill-educated folk, or even folk who were just dirt poor. It's a lot of people, a lot of kids from average to affluent backgrounds, and it's laziness. Hell, I was lazy about brushing my teeth sometimes, even to the point of making more work for myself by wetting my brush so the folks would think I'd brushed (the daft things you do as a kid, eh?).

Almost all the people I know with bad dental health, including my husband (who was from a wealthier family than me, and his mother was a pharmacist, so I doubt very much she didn't realise the effect) were never routinely encouraged into good dental habits as a child. My father said his teeth were bad because he only brushed 'when he felt like it', so he's fastidious about his kids doing it. Fifty years ago, yeah, I could buy 'we didn't know', but not today, not really.

Does that mean people won't still drink fizzy stuff? 'Course not, I do myself, and I love my sweeties. But I'm really not going to pretend I don't know it isn't the best for me, just like I still smoke and I'm not going to say, 'well, nobody told ME it was bad.'



jlsavell

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RE: Water
Reply on October 28, 2017 01:24 PM << Modifed October 28 at 1:33PM >>
Sarkems, what did you mean someone like Jimi to say? I apologize if I do not understand what you meant.

To reiterate, I don?t think I said any of those things, except I was stating what Coca Cola made up nothing great for you but high in acid will do to your body and how it robs you of health. Nothing can replace healthy eating habits and good hygiene. It?s your best battle against disease in this overdosed pollution world.

Many people do not think twice about giving their children a coke or a cupcake or candy on a daily basis. While once in a great while may not hurt, a consistent habit over time will have negative effects.

Bad dental hygiene is not an indicator of economic status. Habits often dictate health, oral or otherwise. I understand poverty quite well. I lived it as a child and a young adult. And today, I am considered just above the poverty line here in the U,S.

   
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